Churches close amidst declining attendence

[Farm Boy]

Basic social interaction and participation. The fabric, as it were.

All the way down to learning instruments, one example. Why play for people, there is YouTube which does it better.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Basic social interaction and participation. The fabric, as it were.

All the way down to learning instruments, one example. Why play for people, there is YouTube which does it better.

Rot is generally taken to mean a deterioration from some acceptable standard of usability or acceptance. What or when is the standard from which our culture as deteriorated? I'm sure different aspects of our culture have different time lines, but do your best identify the starting point.

 

[Farm Boy]

1980 or thereabouts.

It's a personal observation, so I use what I've got.

 

[Narz]

I agree with FarmBoy there's a falling away of old traditions & more isolationism but even if that trend turns around (which I hope it does regarding isolationism at least) it's not like people are gonna go back to church.

For every born-again there are dozens leaving. Like it or not, as people become more educated they become less religious. When religion is the only game in town it can do ok, as soon as people have options... well the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Farm Boy]

If we use time as a measure, I'm not certain the winner isn't actually phone games.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If we use time as a measure, I'm not certain the winner isn't actually phone games.

Thank you Steve Jobs?

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't know. I'm just thinking the species is the same, the hours in the day are the same, so how do we measure what rose in the place of community participation. Might as well look at what people spend thier time on? I don't think it's sourdough starters.

 

[Synobun]

The institution of church as a vehicle for social wellness and connection really only jives as long as you're part of the church's in-group, and even then only if you adhere to the preordained value system imposed by the religious authority in question. A lack of church alone does not seem to meet the definition of societal rot*.

* I don't disagree that there is rot, but it's not because people aren't sitting in a pew anymore. Connection is aggressively legislated out of our society and today's economy is built on siloing people apart and commodifying even simple physical existence to the utmost limit of one's wallet and beyond. Individualism (to the extent of portraying one as a single entity on an island) is marketed as ideal behaviour and the model for personal growth. It doesn't make for a lot of opportunities for effective socializing.

 

[Voidwalkin]

The institution of church as a vehicle for social wellness and connection really only jives as long as you're part of the church's in-group

If one member of the church is willing to vouch that you're an OK guy, alotta doors open for you. These networks can be accessed even if not a member, unless they collapse entirely, in which case, basically irreplaceable.

 

[Farm Boy]

The institution of church as a vehicle for social wellness and connection really only jives as long as you're part of the church's in-group, and even then only if you adhere to the preordained value system imposed by the religious authority in question. A lack of church alone does not seem to meet the definition of societal rot*.

* I don't disagree that there is rot, but it's not because people aren't sitting in a pew anymore. Connection is aggressively legislated out of our society and today's economy is built on siloing people apart and commodifying even simple physical existence to the utmost limit of one's wallet and beyond. Individualism (to the extent of portraying one as a single entity on an island) is marketed as ideal behaviour and the model for personal growth. It doesn't make for a lot of opportunities for effective socializing.

I agree with basically all of that(except churches are a lot more squishy than that. If one is mostly willing to not challenge(too hard) the theological foundations(out loud) and participate in the communal acts of lifting, most aren't going to try and carve too many "windows into souls." Lots even have extraneous services around Christmas time for people who are too angry with the divine or simply tired(grief is both boring and exhausting) to sit in pews surrounded by holiday splendor and families in their golden happy moments).

Stuff like ladies that stand at bus stops with their neighbors kids getting whacked for "running an illegal daycare" is basically the logical conclusion of our interpretations of the commerce clause and demand for endless actuarialized liability.

I do have to say that while the school system has legislation that forces inclusion and I am currently blessed with (mostly) supportive and caring professionals, the Catholics have been baseline the most accepting and least punitive group when it comes to living with neurodiversity. It's been an interesting ride.

If one member of the church is willing to vouch that you're an OK guy, alotta doors open for you.

You still aren't going to like all of them! Just not going to happen.

 

[Synobun]

If one member of the church is willing to vouch that you're an OK guy, alotta doors open for you. These networks can be accessed even if not a member, unless they collapse entirely, in which case, basically irreplaceable.

That's a really big if, speaking as someone who's been on both sides of that: vouched for and vouched against. To some extent, even the option of being vouched for is a privilege or matter of luck. This is also true in small-scale social settings (e.g., you can get rejected by everyone at a local game shop and thus feel unwelcome there), but churches have far greater weight associated with this kind of gatekeeping. If the bake-sale church lady says something bad about you, or you happen to have the wrong colour of skin or lifestyle in a parish with particular values, you suddenly find yourself viscerally rejected in common everyday life by dozens if not hundreds of people.

The value of that network if you're in it is of course immense, and when you're part of it, it feels like the result of an effective social system. We're all working together! But take only a couple steps back and you see how exclusive of a club it is, and what is required to remain in its good graces. One of the easiest examples of this is the Salvation Army, which is both an incredible source of charity yet an equally incredible source of discrimination and ostracization.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not surprised but the downside is nothing has replaced them so the social isolation and loneliness seems to be bad.

Internet can't replace it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I don't disagree that there is rot, but it's not because people aren't sitting in a pew anymore. Connection is aggressively legislated out of our society and today's economy is built on siloing people apart and commodifying even simple physical existence to the utmost limit of one's wallet and beyond. Individualism (to the extent of portraying one as a single entity on an island) is marketed as ideal behaviour and the model for personal growth. It doesn't make for a lot of opportunities for effective socializing.

One of the biggest changes in US culture over the past 70 years has been that previously marginalized or hidden elements of society have been allowed out of their enclosures and into public view. In the 1950s the gay doctors at Hopkins Hospital Baltimore were talked about in hushed tones as being "different" when they attended parties. Over the years gays, blacks, yellows, browns, mixed, ********, disabled, queer, trans, cross dressers, obese, etc. have all made their public debuts and been formally introduced into society. We are still in transition.

 

[Voidwalkin]

But take only a couple steps back and you see how exclusive of a club it is, and what is required to remain in its good graces. One of the easiest examples of this is the Salvation Army, which is both an incredible source of charity yet an equally incredible source of discrimination and ostracization.

Too harsh.

Especially in light of the alternative, which is, for most, nothing. Maybe whatever coworkers you're stuck with, that's the only proximity you're gonna get, and proximity is the prereq here.

If a secular alternative communal meeting is meant to be created, I would support its creation, even if done formally, by the state. In absence of that, I don't think churches can be considered negative on the whole: if there is no better alternative available, decline will follow. Or, more menacingly, unhealthy alternative forms of community will arise. Locally, there are two real extracurricular(so to speak) networks in existence for those under 50: the church network, and the drug network. The second arises not from lack of faith, of course, but the pain of isolation and its consequent lack of hope.

I'm a lifelong atheist and believe Christianity is mortally wounded(historical timelines here). I don't celebrate its decline as much as I used to. There's something of real value lost that has nothing to do with faith.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Locally, there are two real extracurricular(so to speak) networks in existence for those under 50: the church network, and the drug network.

Nonsense. People can and do meet people in lots of places that are not church or drug only related. Parks, sports events, bars, museums, local festivals, work and after hours work events, educational events or classes, etc. Many cities and towns have local events that bring people together. Event internet sites like CFC can be a way for folks to get to know others and socialize.

 

[Arwon]

Just do community sport really. Join a local footy club or a social basketball game, whatever. Any of those help you make friends as adults.

For age groups under 40 in this country, over half of people do some sort of organised sport participation. That's certainly way higher than church attendance has been since like, 1950.

 

[Voidwalkin]

work and after hours work events

This I agree with.

People can and do meet people in lots of places that are not church or drug only related. Parks, sports events, bars, museums, local festivals, work and after hours work events, educational events or classes,

Rest I don't see and never have. They may exist. The numbers of participants are so small it may as well not be mentioned, though.

I have a really bleak view of the state of the culture consequently. The organizations that are supposed to exist? They don't. Everybody is too busy online, I guess.

Physical space is really light. Trust is down, anxiety up, more or less cross board.

 

[Farm Boy]

Nonsense. People can and do meet people in lots of places that are not church or drug only related. Parks, sports events, bars, museums, local festivals, work and after hours work events, educational events or classes, etc. Many cities and towns have local events that bring people together. Event internet sites like CFC can be a way for folks to get to know others and socialize.

Heavily influenced by income.

Tracks all the way down to the most intimate and marriage rates.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Heavily influenced by income.

Tracks all the way down to the most intimate and marriage rates.

Income influences most things. Nonetheless, even homeless communities have social interaction, cohabitation and sex.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, yes. It's not binary.