Citizen Pulse : Are you satisfied with the democracy?

DaveShack

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This thread is to get citizen comments on the democracy aspects of the game. Are you satisfied with how the decisions are being made? Are the right things being discussed and polled? Are your opinions treated as valued input by the elected leadership?

Please share any thoughts you have on how to improve this or future games.
 
You can ask another question DS, why is the game depopulated, and what kind of typology of players are left, and who has left. People is not that worred about democracy , as of their entertainment part being covered as well. This game is more polled than anything else, I would rather look into the roles of voting blocs, unfair play and other reasons leading to the depopulation of the game. Just notice how many so-called hawks are left, even moderates, most of them has been coerced away by a handful who sits on most of Japanatica, and can dominate polls with 5-6 people.
 
Provolution said:
You can ask another question DS, why is the game depopulated, and what kind of typology of players are left, and who has left.
Just notice how many so-called hawks are left, even moderates, most of them has been coerced away by a handful who sits on most of Japanatica, and can dominate polls with 5-6 people.

I see two potential discussion topics here, good start :)

First, why does the game depopulate in the middle terms? We saw a similar depopulation situation in DG3 and DG4, both over serious out of game controversy. In DG3 we had a chat vs forum blowup which resulted in a struggle for control of the ruleset for DG4. The ruleset problems resulted in DG4 being started before the rules were ready, so it was plagued by legal battles from the start. Lots of people left in disgust because they were here to play civ, not to argue over the mechanics of the democracy.

I suspect however that this time the cause is different. If some of the dearly departed are still lurking maybe they will grace us with some feedback. Also, there is a very simple and unavoidable reason for some people to leave, which is changing RL situations.

A second discussion topic is on the difference between one's ideas being respected but in the minority, versus lack of respect for ideas. I want to caution those who choose to join in this discussion, I'm not here to give you a forum for personal arguments. For my part, I expect to win some battles and lose some, and just don't usually think in terms of conspiracy theories, unofficial voting blocks, or undue influence. There have been a few questionable events, but they were usually triggered by the victim's ill-advised actions. The only questionable results I've seen have been elections (T2 for example) with many people who vote once, sometimes without registering, and then never appear here again. It helps to be well-known on the site with lots of friends. :cringe:

I do have some advice for those who would like to increase their influence, regain past glory, or just get more enjoyment from the game. Don't think about this little experiment (the democracy part) like a competition, think of it as cooperation. Losing an election, or having your ideas rejected, or being passed over when a new mod is selected, or fights with someone else with a bad attitude should not be reasons to be driven away from the game. There are enough RL reasons to get dragged away from it to let your entertainment be ruined by an occasional defeat. :D
 
A main reason some people are inactive is because of growing power to the people that go to the chats. If you dont go to the TC, then you have to look at the save to find out whats going on, and that just shouldn't happen. Many polls are complicated or are linking to discussions. This will most likely happen next DG also. Starting next DG, participation will be huge, but then people will start dwindling away... I think it is because people are getting bored, reasons for this are people that wanted to play on monarch with no variants. We all know we can win, so why sit around and watch?
 
Let's see,

  • Same game as before
  • No challenge to the game
  • Game start before it was ready, AGAIN
  • Arrogant and condescending leaders
  • Minimal respect of leaders by citizens
  • Too many offices
  • No strong governors in critical terms
  • Too many polls, not enough discussion
  • Minimal effort by leaders to communicate with citizens
  • Minimal, at best, summary information by leaders
  • Horrible, horrible polling practices

The game started off poorly, crammed into a deadline that couldn't be met. Completely disinterested me from the game. Folks, do you realize that we started this without a complete ruleset? Think about that ... We're playing at such a basic game that there isn't much of a challenge to it. We can, and have, play the game with half a brain on it and dominate the game.

I have seen more outright flaming and personal attacks in this game than any previous game. And we've had some vicous flamewars in the past. There is minimal respect for office holders. Example - we have threads for each office, but comments and suggestions are posted in the Citizen forum, not in the office thread. Gee, if you've got an idea about an area that an official supervises it, perhaps you could post it in their office? Oh wait, that would be showing respect for them.

DG V is the most disheartening of the DG's to watch.

-- Ravensfire
 
The difficulty is too low. We already know we can win the game. There's not really any challenge left unless we were to go genocidal and declare war on everyone. Even then we'd probably win.

Although I found the useless prattle and arguments entertaining, they just kept going in circles. As Ravensfire said, ditto.
 
I think demotivation of the leaders that produce the goods of the nation and drives processes being rewarded by insults, harangues, sarcasms and mockeries, leads to said arrogance and condescending attitude that works as a red cloth to some citizens. There was actually a research project on the value and the size of all the multiplayer online communities total economies, and these exacted about the GDP of some African nations combined.

Even running a ficticious civilization like Japanatica is hard, very hard, when there is no other incentive to lead than some token respect, entertaining posts and interesting strategic dilemmas and proposals. I am the first to admit that I may have turned darker and gloomier in Term V than term IV. I found Term IV to work pretty well after some more tumultuous terms. We can just compare terms by objective criteria such as insults, proposals, number of active posters and so on. I admit I did some mistakes, but at least I managed to entertain and motivate some people as well as inform on the status of the military. The problem was that the criticism from the outset was personal, and not conducive to constructive criticism. I tried to keep my attacks as much as possible at the idea level, but after the controversy with Epimethius, his entire bandwaggon set out to take me down, and they actually managed to do that, but in the process all interested in some military planning has left.

Some of us actually had fun discussing hypothetical plans in the game, and argue around these back and forth, what should be done in various scenarios and so on.
However, some did not like the concept, and decided to destroy it without offering a substitute, and well, they succeded. They would rather undo someone elses fun and have no fun, than to present their own alternative. I may admit I use terms and wording that did not fall favorably to many, conditional polls and so on. But what do you do when all attempts on adapting to a non-existant foreign policy is shot down.
I am not taking all the blame here, but I am willing to share some of it. I am probably the only one willing to admit that, with a lot of principal holy rollers who consider themselves morally elevated waiting for their political opponents to throw in their towel, put their head into the scaffold and await the analytical firing squad.

Honestly, I did well in Term 1 and 4, and less well in Term 2 due to IRL concerns (just passed mandate quietly to Civanator). I always ran a clean campaign until Term V, where I was tired by the groundless personal persecution so I decided to strike back. I could have behaved "statesman-like", but decided striking back was the best choice, for personal reasons. However, group psychology works in curious ways when someone raises the finger at someone, and likeminded individuals go collectively in for targeting that unnatural and inappropriate presence for removal, which is indeed a clean and Darwinistically understandable response. If you do not fit into a tribe, you leave.

So, I got mostly positive feedback for Term IV, but some group psychology mechanic, massive DG depopulation and a general polarization of sides added to a standard for accepted "political correctness" strangulated the diversity of the game.

Everyone will claim they are right and for the sake of convenience, project the negative focus on me or someone else they find as designated clay pigeons for their verbal frustrations and real world politics.

Well, congratulations, Japanatica may have become a very civilized place, but so so deserted. And to be a hero, you need to villainize someone, right?

I think the technology ideology competition of Term 1 was interesting and not as divisive. This game had some interesting conflicts and dilemmas, which kept that many people interested. So I found Term 1 and and four as the top stages, whereas Term 3 did not look too bad. I found Term 5 at an all time low.

And of course, I expect no mercy or understanding here this time, just verbal obliteration and one-sided "See, I was right all the way" preaching.
I think I will place culture-specific explanations for that in Off Topic, not here.
 
For me, DemoGame fatigue and RL constraints, plain and simple. I have been doing this for over two years now.

And it's one thing to make the same mistakes time and time again(as illustrated by Ravensfire), but to do so willfully is another story. I no longer have the time nor the mandate to fix them.
 
Uh Provo, could you summarize that please? The length of the paragraph would make English teachers roll over in their grave :lol:
 
Throughout the course of the Demogames, it has been clashes over ideology that have led to the bitter fights we've all seen. Whether it's chat vs. forums or hawk vs. dove, there are somes issues that people will simply never be able to agree on. Of course, that doesn't keep people from arguing their sides, and the more we argue the more bitter and viscious we get; which in turn drives people away who don't want to get involved in the seemingly eternal disputes in the DG.

As Provo said, running a government (even a fictional computer game government) is hard work. Eventually, someone will come to the point where they ask themself, "why am I wasting my time on this aggrevating, unrewarding game?". That's when people leave. Unfortunately, I can't think of any solution to this problem, because there's really no way to convince everyone to get along. I think we just have to hope that the positive experiences outway the negative in the Demogame.


Of course, there's always the hope of Civ4 to keep people excited.
 
Blackheart

A good English teacher is a dead english teacher :D
 
i hope we can fix this in between DGV and DGVI, the two main things we should do are trash the entire ruleset, and make the game more challenging... The only problem with this is if we are forced to start early. Our ruleset was just smashed together at the very end with little thought because we had a 1 week warning...
 
blackheart said:
Uh Provo, could you summarize that please? The length of the paragraph would make English teachers roll over in their grave :lol:

No surprises there Blackheart, an honest attempt made to present a personal summary of this issue is met by a small insult. Well, I figured you out long time ago, you are there for the fights and the bickering, your response is very telling to the prevailing mood here now, I can figure that the last term will be very uncontroversial, everyone will tap everyones back in order to keep a few poor souls left to write with for the finale. By the way, good luck for the histographic victory, it will indeed be very fun.
 
Well, for me for a time. The reason I started lurking and started to perfer an office that has less involvement (Such as the governorship. Science, FAs) is due mainly because of RL issues. I am currently still attending college and education is my #1 priority. Also, I do not have as much time as I used to when I first started the DG. Now I have a relationship with a girl, going to Karate Classes, and working on my Associates in Marine Science and planning to go for another 2 years for a Bachellors in Psych (Possibly Community since I plan to be a Guidence Councelor or a Carrer Councelor).

After my final exams, I have gained more time since college is closed for a whole month. With more time, I can seek a more selection of offices such as the military department.

The only time that I would leave the Demogame is if RL overwhelms and forces me to spend less time in CFC.
 
Provolution said:
No surprises there Blackheart, an honest attempt made to present a personal summary of this issue is met by a small insult. Well, I figured you out long time ago, you are there for the fights and the bickering, your response is very telling to the prevailing mood here now, I can figure that the last term will be very uncontroversial, everyone will tap everyones back in order to keep a few poor souls left to write with for the finale. By the way, good luck for the histographic victory, it will indeed be very fun.

Provo - good to see you handle criticism well!

Seriously, you have a verbose, convoluted writing style that is difficult to scan through. Quite simply, I don't bother most of the time. A brief summary of your points is often more effective, especially on a general forum, than a detailed post. Heck, bolding your main points would dramatically increase readability.

-- Ravensfire
 
:lol: Funny, ravensfire, very funny.


But seriously, it's stuff like this that creates divisions between us Demogamers (not to mention the fact that we're getting more and more offtopic). So far, I think ravensfire gave the best synopsis of the apparent problems in our game with his first post. Perhaps we should focus on ways to address his (and other's) list of complaints.
 
Provolution said:
No surprises there Blackheart, an honest attempt made to present a personal summary of this issue is met by a small insult. Well, I figured you out long time ago, you are there for the fights and the bickering, your response is very telling to the prevailing mood here now, I can figure that the last term will be very uncontroversial, everyone will tap everyones back in order to keep a few poor souls left to write with for the finale. By the way, good luck for the histographic victory, it will indeed be very fun.

Personal.....attack?

All I wanted was something shorter to read so it wouldn't strain my eyes!
 
I had a full page written on giving and receiving feedback, but then thought better of it and hit "back" instead of "submit" in the browser.

Provolution -- you do know how to read smilies, yes? :lol:

My situation is driven entirely by RL concerns, primarily the 3.75 year old one and the 13 month old one. :D The one I sleep with has a little to do with it, and there is that 4-letter word that all but a privileged few are stuck with after school ends...
Spoiler :
work


I think we'll need something radical to counter burnout. Different CIV version, higher difficulty, different government style, playing a mod or scenario, ...
 
I just thought of something else that might have something to do with our Demogame getting "burnout" in the latter parts of the game. In the beginning of the game, it is fairly easy to go in and out of the game. If someone wants to join, it's a fairly simple process of figuring out what's going on, and catching up on the latest developments. However, as the game progresses and gets more and more complicated, it gets harder and harder to join in. Thus, all the new people that infuse the population of the Demogame in the earlier parts are absent in the later parts of the game.

I'm sure it's not the only reason, but it might partially explain the seemingly chronis lack of players in the later parts of the Demogame.
 
Black_Hole said:
A main reason some people are inactive is because of growing power to the people that go to the chats. If you dont go to the TC, then you have to look at the save to find out whats going on, and that just shouldn't happen. Many polls are complicated or are linking to discussions. This will most likely happen next DG also. Starting next DG, participation will be huge, but then people will start dwindling away... I think it is because people are getting bored, reasons for this are people that wanted to play on monarch with no variants. We all know we can win, so why sit around and watch?

Actually, not many people are attending the chats these days....

Atleast not in the numbers compared to the early demogames (up to 20 at a time in the chatroom).

I can think of 2 reasons why participation is slow.

1 - We're going VERY slowly this term. Only 5 chats, and barely 5 turns per chat. The slowest term ever in a demogame. (citizens are used to the 80 turns per term as in other demogames).

2 - We're nearing the endgame. All that's left is UN or histographic, and there's nothing fun in that when it's right around the corner.

Oh and another thing. When we decide on the next ruleset, let's keep a time limit to it, like 1 month. None of this "Let's waste an entire season discussing how to post threads and polls!" stuff.
 
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