City State Empires

[Darsnan]

Hi Darsnan! I think we're doing it even more differently: I'm having each Civ have three different City States related to them, not a single City State with three cities. So unfortunately I haven't playtested that which you're interested in. I plan on allowing City States to found and conquer more often, so when I have feedback on that I'll be glad to offer it.

I actually want the number 3 to be able to scale: 2 is my ideal number, but if the player sets up the slider so that there are enough CS as to give three to each Civ, then that's how it's gonna play out.

Ah, OK, now I understand how you're approaching this. I hadn't even thought of doing it that way! It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Good Luck on this - I'll be interested to see how your approach plays out!

D

 

[vrolok83]

Right, Taiwan could be a City State of China. I definitely agree with not taking it all too seriously, to hell I say with governments and their political agendas (which change as easily as it's comfortable for them)

Taipei is the name of the city, not Taiwan. The island also has the Portuguese name Formosa.

Since Taiwan is recognised as an autonomous region of China, it should be a part of China in your mod along with Lhasa, which shares a similar situation.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Lhasa achieved its greatest success under independence. Taipei has achieved its greatest success in a really nebulous time (is it independent, is it not?). Certainly worthy of considering (along with the other Tigers). I understand why they couldn't include them as a City-State, though.

 

[Shiggs713]

added 6 more in v4 now, some might be duplicates of ones you already have, but I'm sure a couple aren't.

 

[Szpilman]

Ah, OK, now I understand how you're approaching this. I hadn't even thought of doing it that way! It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Good Luck on this - I'll be interested to see how your approach plays out!

D

I think it's gonna be fun

Lhasa achieved its greatest success under independence. Taipei has achieved its greatest success in a really nebulous time (is it independent, is it not?). Certainly worthy of considering (along with the other Tigers). I understand why they couldn't include them as a City-State, though.

Yeah, Taipei would be the city, that's a great one! I'm actually now thinking it would be great if each City State added had it's own 'minor civilization' to aspire to, so they could have city lists just like the major civs. Now I get you point about the canadian ones Though Canada could be broken up into Quebec province and the rest.

added 6 more in v4 now, some might be duplicates of ones you already have, but I'm sure a couple aren't.

Thank you so much for the taking the time to drop by, Shiggs! Some really cool new ones that I'll definitely be using.

 

[BobTheTerrible]

I'm actually now thinking it would be great if each City State added had it's own 'minor civilization' to aspire to, so they could have city lists just like the major civs. Now I get you point about the canadian ones Though Canada could be broken up into Quebec province and the rest.

I came into the thread to suggest that idea. Certain (or, ideally, all) city-states could have city lists and be allowed to build settlers and form multi-city nations that would function identically to city-states (except, maybe with the ability to declare war on other city-states). This would go a long way to add a full "minor nation" flavor, without wasting valuable "full-civ" slots. Certain city-states could be randomly flagged as "expansive" at the beginning of a game, and only these expansive ones would be capable of building settlers for that game. This way, at the beginning of a game, the player won't know beforehand which city-states are trying to expand.

Another idea, but probably beyond the scope of the mod: using city-states to simulate revolutions. If an empire is unhappy for long enough, the cities which have the most unhappiness can split off from the main empire, creating a new "xxx rebels" city state which is at war with the mother country. Downside is that you'd have to create a new city-state for each of the full civilizations with a different name ("Arabian rebels," "American rebels," etc); and, of course, you'd have to add these rebels as new players to the game midway through (which may not be possible until we get the C++ SDK).

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Whether you believe Taiwan is a province of the China, that has a different government, passport, diplomatic relations, military, and culture, or is just an independent country, is a topic for a political thread. I suggested Taiwan (Taipei) be a city state for Japan, because it was one of the first colonies of the Japanese empire, from 1895 - 1945. And because of the other countries in Asia, Taiwan probably has the most in common culturally with Japan than any of Japan's other neighbors. Also, China has many options for city-states, while for Japan we could use some more unkown colonies, like Palau, or Yap.
I believe this mod does not take place only in the modern-era, so there is no political agenda about Taiwan's possible relation to China. In the same way, having Egyptian or Babylon having Jerusalem is not anti-Israeli/pro-Arab, it is just a historic fact.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Japan's city-states - Seoul, Taipei, Singapore, Manila...

Well, if you want to go by WWII.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Well, Singapore and Manila were held for less than 5 years I think. And never truly were apart of the empire. A lot (almost all of in Taiwan) of the pre 1950s architecture/infrastructure of Korea and Taiwan was built under the Japanese, and both were taken officially before WW1, and were already either annexed or were puppet states before the 20th century.
The Ryukyu, was taken in 1609, and officially became apart of Japan in the mid 19th century with Hokkaido. The natives of both were related to the Japanese, but have different languages, cultures, etc.

 

[Chiyochan]

Why do you feel Macau and HK can't be in?
(I actually just checked and Macau is listed in the game already, though gladly HK is not.)
Which cities would you suggest? Please denote in order of priority if possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms
I dont know which dynasty would be best to include, perhaps all 3, and make the current chinese player the jin?
either way the idea of these cities being important to integrate into the empires as part of the mod makes it a no brainer to select empires that in history where integrated into their empires.

Well, Singapore and Manila were held for less than 5 years I think. And never truly were apart of the empire. A lot (almost all of in Taiwan) of the pre 1950s architecture/infrastructure of Korea and Taiwan was built under the Japanese, and both were taken officially before WW1, and were already either annexed or were puppet states before the 20th century.
The Ryukyu, was taken in 1609, and officially became apart of Japan in the mid 19th century with Hokkaido. The natives of both were related to the Japanese, but have different languages, cultures, etc.

Japan would probably be best represented as the tokugawa shogunate in sengoku jidai. selecting the 3 most powerful clans of the era. including Ashikaga and two other powerfull daimyos

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Would the US, best be represented by the three most populace states?
In the Tokugawa Shogunate, Japan was ruled by one person, the Shogun, the other daimyo's land were a part of Japan, and had to follow his rules, they were not independent or considered colonies or in anyway different. BTW Shogunate is established after the Sengoku,and if Oda is ruling it, it would either represent all of Japanese history, or the Oda clan, not Tokugawa. Also, Ashikaga wasn't considered powerful after the Onin-War, which is why the Sengoku happened.
And it would be strange to have Japanese city names, and then the clans that ruled them.
Back to above, should the US have Los Angles, and have the city state of California seperately?

 

[Chiyochan]

Would the US, best be represented by the three most populace states?
In the Tokugawa Shogunate, Japan was ruled by one person, the Shogun, the other daimyo's land were a part of Japan, and had to follow his rules, they were not independent or considered colonies or in anyway different. BTW Shogunate is established after the Sengoku,and if Oda is ruling it, it would either represent all of Japanese history, or the Oda clan, not Tokugawa. Also, Ashikaga wasn't considered powerful after the Onin-War, which is why the Sengoku happened.
And it would be strange to have Japanese city names, and then the clans that ruled them.
Back to above, should the US have Los Angles, and have the city state of California seperately?

Oda didn't rule it because he died early. your critisism seems rather unfounded. why continue the game for more than a few turns then, because Oda would be dead within that time. you cant just continue without the next historical leader. I dont see how it would be bad to have clans that rule over their own cities. Maybe if you have some sort of aversion to learning history. And then ironicaly you go right back to america, where you tell us cities that belong to america should be city states.

I'm pretty confused at your suggestions, but i'll give my two bits. Creek , Texas, and the Sioux where all challenges that the USA had to contend over rather than just settle.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

I do not want to get into a flame war, but. You said "Japan would probably be best represented as the Tokugawa shogunate in sengoku jidai. selecting the 3 most powerful clans of the era. including Ashikaga and two other powerful daimyos "
Which has 3 problems that I had already laid out,
1. Tokugawa Shogunate is founded after the sengoku-jidai, this was just a sort of grammatical error on your part, I assume, you mean the Tokugawa clan during the sengoku? Sengoku period is from 1467–1573, although some people say it continues until the battle of Sekigahara in 1603 with the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate.
2. If Japan was modeled like the Tokugawa Shogunate, then all of the daimyo's land would already be under his direct control, if you want it to be modeled like the Sengoku-jidai, then a lot of cities belonging to "Japan" would be strange.
3. Ashikaga were not a real power after the Onin-war, and were just used as fake "kings of Japan" when the Tsushima government wanted to trade with Korea. Also during the Sengoku-jidai, the Ashikaga, would be the Shogunate, not daimyo...

I said that since Oda Nobunaga was the ruler of Japan, in the game, then it should be a representation of all Japanese history. If you want to base Japan on the Sengoku-jidai, then Oda would probably be the city state, since the Oda, and its successor, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, unified Japan, (which ended the Sengoku-jidai).

I don't understand any of your points, I am sorry. I am not trying to be rude.


I was being ironic, about the US states being the US's city states, since they are a part of the US. In the same way that, Daimyo's provinces were apart of Japan during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Although Texas would be good, in someways, California (Republic) and even Hawaii (the Kingdom of) would be good city states for the US, it would not make sense, to me, if Dallas, or Los Angles were apart of the US civ, and they were allied with the city states of Texas, California etc. In the same way, having the Shimazu as a city state, and having Satsuma, or Kagoshima as cities for Japan.

I think Japan should be represented as Japanese history, from Yayoi to now. i.e, the rivalry/tributary/colonies, of the Yamato, the Tokugawa Shogunate, and the Japanese Empire. And not focus on a mix of The Edo and Sengoku periods, which would add to confusion with Japanese city names and city states, also because they are all purely, ethnically, culturally Japanese. Were as the other choices were/aren't and would make more sense if they are not under the direct control of the Japanese civ

 

[yorkgrass]

Whether you believe Taiwan is a province of the China, that has a different government, passport, diplomatic relations, military, and culture, or is just an independent country, is a topic for a political thread. I suggested Taiwan (Taipei) be a city state for Japan, because it was one of the first colonies of the Japanese empire, from 1895 - 1945. And because of the other countries in Asia, Taiwan probably has the most in common culturally with Japan than any of Japan's other neighbors. Also, China has many options for city-states, while for Japan we could use some more unkown colonies, like Palau, or Yap.
I believe this mod does not take place only in the modern-era, so there is no political agenda about Taiwan's possible relation to China. In the same way, having Egyptian or Babylon having Jerusalem is not anti-Israeli/pro-Arab, it is just a historic fact.

well, comparing about 50 years of colonization by japan, taiwan was colonised by china since 610 BC, Sui dynasty, until the 2WW. chinese (Han) population in taiwan was never less than 90%. But, in the game, you can make it as an indian colony if it can balance the game play.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

well, comparing about 50 years of colonization by japan, taiwan was colonised by china since 610 BC, Sui dynasty, until the 2WW. chinese (Han) population in taiwan was never less than 90%. But, in the game, you can make it as an indian colony if it can balance the game play.

Well that information is really skewed...
1. Sui Dynasty was 610AD not BC
But there was no real mainland Chinese immigration to Taiwan until probably the Qing.
Taiwan became officially apart of China in 1683, but was never under any real control from the main government. And most of the pre Japanese era Chinese came during the Dutch period or after the 1700s.
2. I think you mean to say, after ww2 the Chinese (Han) it never dropped below 90%, mainly because of the immigration to Taiwan under Japanese control (the population grew from under 3 million in 1900 *2.5 million were ethnically Chinese*, to 6 million by 1945) and also because of the massive refugees from China to Taiwan, with the loss of the civil war, and the founding of the Republic of China (Taiwan) which tried to erase native Taiwanese (both Chinese and aborigines) and Japanese culture to replace it with the Nationalist Chinese model.

I can understand why Taipei could belong to the Chinese civ, but I said before, it was just a balance, and also it might be more politically correct not to give them to China, even though the China in this game is not necessarily the PRC.

On a side note, the non-Chinese Taiwanese aborigines were some of the best soldiers in Japan during WW2, They are still respected today by veterans.

 

[yorkgrass]

Well that information is really skewed...
1. Sui Dynasty was 610AD not BC
But there was no real mainland Chinese immigration to Taiwan until probably the Qing.
Taiwan became officially apart of China in 1683, but was never under any real control from the main government. And most of the pre Japanese era Chinese came during the Dutch period or after the 1700s.
2. I think you mean to say, after ww2 the Chinese (Han) it never dropped below 90%, mainly because of the immigration to Taiwan under Japanese control (the population grew from under 3 million in 1900 *2.5 million were ethnically Chinese*, to 6 million by 1945) and also because of the massive refugees from China to Taiwan, with the loss of the civil war, and the founding of the Republic of China (Taiwan) which tried to erase native Taiwanese (both Chinese and aborigines) and Japanese culture to replace it with the Nationalist Chinese model.

I can understand why Taipei could belong to the Chinese civ, but I said before, it was just a balance, and also it might be more politically correct not to give them to China, even though the China in this game is not necessarily the PRC.

On a side note, the non-Chinese Taiwanese aborigines were some of the best soldiers in Japan during WW2, They are still respected today by veterans.

1. sorry about BC/AD, always confuse those.
2.you are right about one thing, that china didn't have the full control of taiwan before Dutch, but the majority in taiwan was Han Chinese.
3. also, in 1662, taiwan was reoccupied by Ming dynasty, I guess the colonization should count from here until japanese came in.
4. I ll remain silence about all the PRC/RC thing, they both suck man! well but that's how we chinese do the politics

 

[Chiyochan]

Words

Maybe we have fundamentally different ideas for what this mod is supposed to be, I kind of figured you where meant to unite the city states related to you, by friendship alliances or conquest and then continue on with the game stronger than before after struggling to do so. In that sense, sengoku jidai would be the best time period to use because it represents a unification of a divided country. If thats now how you view the use of these city states then I guess I just have a totally different idea.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

unification of a divided country.

I think that is the main difference between our ideas. I would see Japan as Japan, and the city states as related to Japan, by culture, or geographic location, which the Japanese civ must establish a relationship with. Not as Japan being in its weakest state and trying to put itself back together, which would be odd, since the the mod starts in the ancient era and continues to the modern. Which is why I think having the city states represent all of Japan's history and not just the short time in the 16th century would be better. Since all of the other countries also had their share of civil war as well.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

By the way, you have Ryukyu and Okinawa, they are the same, Okinawa is the modern province and Ryukyu was the Kingdom.

If Taiwan goes to China, Palau could be a good replacement, it is the only other country that still has Japanese as an official language also, the flags are quite similar.

 

[Szpilman]

Maybe we have fundamentally different ideas for what this mod is supposed to be, I kind of figured you where meant to unite the city states related to you, by friendship alliances or conquest and then continue on with the game stronger than before after struggling to do so. In that sense, sengoku jidai would be the best time period to use because it represents a unification of a divided country. If thats now how you view the use of these city states then I guess I just have a totally different idea.

I think that is the main difference between our ideas. I would see Japan as Japan, and the city states as related to Japan, by culture, or geographic location, which the Japanese civ must establish a relationship with. Not as Japan being in its weakest state and trying to put itself back together, which would be odd, since the the mod starts in the ancient era and continues to the modern. Which is why I think having the city states represent all of Japan's history and not just the short time in the 16th century would be better. Since all of the other countries also had their share of civil war as well.

Well, yeah, the mod is not meant as a kind of scenario where civs must unify their nations or rebuild from the ashes or something. I mean, if annexing the City States that start close to you and share some ethnicity is your thing, that's definitely a path you can take and surely many people will. There will actually even be two paths to it: first you can go to war and annex them by force, and futurely I plan to implement a level to be reached way above Ally, that essentially peacefully unifies the minor civ with yours. But you can just as well build up a lasting relationship and play alongside them. There are different benefits to both approaches. So flexibility is a major feature here. And the choice of states should try to reflect that by not drawing upon a too specific situation of history, if better options are available.