Civ 5 digital deluxe coming exclusively to Steam! Steamworks confirmed!

[Sir Ralph]

Well, developers get 3x more money from each sale via Steam ( and some other DD services) compared to retail.

Assuming this statement is true, which I can't be bothered to verify, what makes you think the extra money goes to the developers or at least into their projects, and not to the shareholders for some extra profit?

 

[Rebel44]

Assuming this statement is true, which I can't be bothered to verify, what makes you think the extra money goes to the developers or at least into their projects, and not to the shareholders for some extra profit?

I said money to developer - not publisher.
How developers spend their money is their problem/decision.
Source was article at Gamasutra several months ago - when I get to work I will try to find that article and post link here.

 

[PieceOfMind]

But you can only play the cracked version on a handful of high ping cracked servers, filled with hackers and cheats. I guess it depends on your definition of "content loss"



Mods won't be exclusive to steam, but using steam as the primary distribution network for them would be trivial. Why wouldn't they? They can allow mods to be distributed in other ways, but you can bet that the majority of them won't be.

That will make it significantly harder to aquire the majority of mods. And, if you use PBEM (if PBEM even exists in 5 since it is such archaic technology), you are then restricted to that play method only.

This is content loss - and not insignificant in my book.

They don't need to stop piracy. They just need to make enough of an incentive to get a legal copy of the game to people who would consider it. Then the pirated copies become demos.

PBEM is archaic technology? You really do sound ridiculous saying that.

What else is archaic? Newspapers, petrol cars, clothes lines, calculators, toilet paper?

I have the feeling a lot of the anti-Steam ("cold water"?) people here don't really understand what Valve is trying to do with the system. It goes way, way beyond anything that has to do with DRM. The DRM is a sideshow. Steam lets you install and run the games on as many computers as you want without having to drag the stupid DVD along with you anyway. The stuff gets synched in the cloud.

What they are trying to do is create something where they can stay in constant contact with their customers, keep them engaged, and make it as easy as possible for them to find new games to like -- and of course to buy. In short, Valve is trying to get away from the "sell and forget" model and move to constant interaction.

The best example is the new DLC for Left 4 Dead 2. There are the usual new maps, enemies and weapons. But more interesting is that since then, every week they change a certain mode of the game -- the "mutations". They also introduced a weekly poll to help them decide which features should be included or changed (currently Realism Versus) and to help them with solutions to problems (currently rage quitting). Note this (including the DLC itself) is all for free. But it keeps people playing L4D2.

Second, an example of how they make stuff easier: A friend of my plays Empire:Total War religiously and convinced me to try the demo. Guess what, the demo is right there on Steam. Just one click. Buying it would be another click (unfortunately, I suck at the game). Easy for me, easy for them.

Steam reminds me of iTunes in that it makes something that was a PITA -- ask me about updating Civ IV:BTS sometime -- so easy that you don't want to miss it once you have it. I'm happy, they're happy. I honestly fail to see what the fuss is all about.

"Stay in constant contact with gamers"...

That is exactly the sort of thing I generally get cynical about. I have nothing against people who call themselves gamers and regularly purchase games (which in this country are pretty expensive hence an expensive hobby) but I don't buy many games and I do not fall for the idea that giving a company more opportunities to market their product to me is an advantage to me. It's an advantage to them.

I have nothing against Valve for running quite a successful business model and I think their Steam client is industry-leading in many ways. It's certainly given me a better impression than other systems which have limited-activation DRM for example.

I like being able to buy things (anything, not just games) and not have to be constantly told to upgrade or buy more stuff. I ring up the business that does my car insurance and the first thing they do after they've sorted my query is to explain to me the advantages of upgrading to a more expensive option.

Pay-and-forget is bliss, IMO. It makes life less complicated. It means that all the stuff I own I don't have to have a working memory about all the hoops I have to jump through to get things working. For the most part, keeping receipts and battery chargers is all I need to do, as well as of course paying the various utilities etc.

At the issue of all the people coming out and hating on Steam, I don't find this terribly surprising given that Civ is a game where many of its players are not your typical "gamer". I hardly play any modern games but I play Civ a lot. This is why Steam is of little value to me (it is of some value I admit, but not much).

The decision to go with Steam I see as basically a sound business decision and not much more. The idea that Civ5 coming exclusively to Steamworks is somehow something that should make me more excited and grateful (as the title of this thread almost implies) is something I don't agree with. I'll live with Steam and maybe even appreciate it, but I'll still remember the good ol' days of a less complicated gaming environment.

And please, I don't need anyone telling me that because I don't play many games I don't matter. That is probably the most annoying thing to see coming from the Steam supporters.

 

[arstal]

This is why I think the Steam decision is worse for Civ V then it would be a game like MW2

a) Strategy gamers tend to pirate less, as they are older and tend to have the money to buy the game

b) Strategy gamers have a lower tolerance for DRM then MW2 players.

Steams great for FPS, but strategy gamers won't enjoy the benefits as much- and will unappreciate the drawbacks more.

That's not me slagging on other gamers, just the way it is.

That said, they might be able to make up for it with marketing. I do feel like this decision is a slap in the face though, and hence why I'm going to give my monetary support (vote with my wallet, which is all we can do in the end) to Civ V's competitors, such as EWOM and Vicky 2 (which I wasn't planning on buying, but now I will)

Really. I've had Steam for over 2 years and actually forget it's on my computer, except when I manually go online to check for updates. How is it intrusive for you you?

I must admit I don't play MP and therefore have no need to be online most of the time. In fact my Laptop does not have an internet connection for 99% of the time.

I don't like the additional 5-10 secs it takes to run the program each time I click on it. With Impulse/GG/no-DRM .exes , you don't have to worry about that.

 

[Osama Bin Davis]

I think I can speak for nearly everyone against steam, Its not the fact its on steam, its the fact we are forced into using steam. We just don't want to use that program for numerous reason whether logical or not, and I think there would be alot more people than you would expect that don't want to use it at all.

 

[Rebel44]

This is why I think the Steam decision is worse for Civ V then it would be a game like MW2

a) Strategy gamers tend to pirate less, as they are older and tend to have the money to buy the game

b) Strategy gamers have a lower tolerance for DRM then MW2 players.

Steams great for FPS, but strategy gamers won't enjoy the benefits as much- and will unappreciate the drawbacks more.

That's not me slagging on other gamers, just the way it is.

That said, they might be able to make up for it with marketing. I do feel like this decision is a slap in the face though, and hence why I'm going to give my monetary support (vote with my wallet, which is all we can do in the end) to Civ V's competitors, such as EWOM and Vicky 2 (which I wasn't planning on buying, but now I will)



I don't like the additional 5-10 secs it takes to run the program each time I click on it. With Impulse/GG/no-DRM .exes , you don't have to worry about that.

I agree with you about both A and B. But when 2K decided that Civ5 will have DRM, there were no perfect choices and IMO Steam was combination of least evil/bad DRM (this is how many people view Steam) and something that benefited devolopment time and cost (Steamworks).

If I were you I wouldnt buy Vicky 2 on release either - Paradox released HoI3 last august and game is still very buggy (I should know, I bought it on release and I also created checksum patch when Paradox screwed up 1.3 patch). I am planning to wait 1-2 weeks after Vicky 2 is released to see at forum if game have game breaking bugs.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Civilization 3 complete with all expansions for £0.75

I challenge any Civ fan who doesn't already own it to justify not buying that.

I tried your challenge. The result...

Site Error

Sorry!

An error was encountered while processing your request:

This item is currently unavailable in your region

Here's a link to the home page.

Gee, isn't Steam fantastic? The link to the homepage is so convenient to us gamers.

 

[Rebel44]

I tried your challenge. The result...




Gee, isn't Steam fantastic? The link to the homepage is so convenient to us gamers.

That error is not caused by Steam. I am not sure where you live, but that error clearly say that you are in country where they arent allowed to sell that game. Complain to 2K that they dont allow Steam to sell it everywhere.

 

[HamTard]

I picked up CivIV Complete for $10 on Steam (sale ends any minute now). The sale began with this announcement (also CivIII Complete is on for $1.25).

 

[PieceOfMind]

That error is not caused by Steam. I am not sure where you live, but that error clearly say that you are in country where they arent allowed to sell that game. Complain to 2K that they dont allow Steam to sell it everywhere.

Well, obviously.

Still, Steam mustn't be allowed to even tell me what the game was.

By the way, Civ3 and Conquests is definitely allowed to be sold where I live. Don't know why Steam wouldn't be allowed to do so. Probably because there's another option to download the same thing for about $20 in this country. That's not Steam's fault I think, but rather the person who sets the price here.

As I said, the link to the homepage is so comforting.

It does serve as a reminder to all those US-based Steam fans that Steam is not the same wonderful thing around the world as it is to you.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Gee, isn't Steam fantastic? The link to the homepage is so convenient to us gamers.

This is not a Steam problem, it is international trade laws not keeping up with technological development. It's the same story for iTunes, where I can't buy stuff from iTunes USA from a German computer. Heaven forbid I could watch Fringe in the original English a day after it is shown on American television instead of having to wait at least a year for it to come out first on German television in a translation so crappy that even the Germans complain.

And studios wonder wonder why people pirate TV shows online.

What makes it even worse is that I can't access that British Civ deal from Germany either, though both are EU countries. So much for the glorious common market.

 

[HamTard]

Well, obviously.

Still, Steam mustn't be allowed to even tell me what the game was.

By the way, Civ3 and Conquests is definitely allowed to be sold where I live. Don't know why Steam wouldn't be allowed to do so. Probably because there's another option to download the same thing for about $20 in this country. That's not Steam's fault I think, but rather the person who sets the price here.

As I said, the link to the homepage is so comforting.

It does serve as a reminder to all those US-based Steam fans that Steam is not the same wonderful thing around the world as it is to you.

Region issues is all the publisher's fault. It happens with distributers of movies/TV too. For some reason, a lot of shows filmed in Canada aren't allowed to be played on Canadian TV until several months or a year after it's been out in the US, due to a US publisher choosing to prioritize the US, even though it makes no sense.

 

[Chalks]

Gee, isn't Steam fantastic? The link to the homepage is so convenient to us gamers.

That's a real shame dude.

Publishers distribute their games via third parties in different countries. I guess the deal they signed with the distributors in your country means that steam is unable to offer the game, or at least they are unable to offer it at such a low price.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Publishers distribute their games via third parties in different countries. I guess the deal they signed with the distributors in your country means that steam is unable to offer the game, or at least they are unable to offer it at such a low price.

Agreed. Is there anything about this I can take as a positive for Civ5 requiring Steam?

What about the fact that 2KElizabeth still doesn't know much about (or at least won't tell us yet) how many parts of the game will work with Steam. Someone suggested that Firaxis have done their homework on this already and have made the decisions based on some notion of maximum revenue or profit. I'm not getting that impression. I'm inclined to believe at this point that the Firaxians, including Shafer, are not impartial to Steam and have made some sort of deal with Valve that gives them some perceived short or long term benefit.

I'm given the impression that marketing of civ5 is getting ahead of itself. I don't think the Babylon civ is even done yet. We're told that Civ5 will require steam and that it will work flawlessly in offline mode etc, yet Firaxis themselves are not giving solid statements to that effect yet. As While Elk has pointed out, the statements are more like "I believe...".

Now I'm sure Firaxis will be working hard to get everything working well, but I doubt there isn't going to be any more disappointments down the road. The hype I'm still most skeptical about is that the game will have unprecedented modding capabilities. If they're only currently working out their workings with steam, I don't think they could possibly have all the modding functionality worked out yet. "Unprecedented" modding tools? My local bakery sells the best pies in the world. My local supermarket sells the freshest fruit. The last post I wrote in this thread had an unprecedented combination of words.

 

[Chalks]

lol

Yeah, PoM, we will see whether all the apparent awesome actually comes to fruition when the game is released

But Steam's offline mode works flawlessly with their current 2,393 games so I think it's safe to assume that Civ 5 isn't going to completely buck the trend on that one.

The rest really is up to Firaxis. Fingers crossed!

 

[EmpireOfCats]

I'm given the impression that marketing of civ5 is getting ahead of itself.

Yes, there is a certain feeling that there is a definite lack of substance to a lot of things. Part of this is because we've not been given much detail from Firaxis themselves, but have to collect info from various sources. This is how markting was done in the 90's, sure, but now we all have this thing called the Internet. I'd be grateful if Firaxis could put some actual info on their webpage instead of only pretty pictures and videos.

My local bakery sells the best pies in the world.

Wow, we must live right next to each other -- mine does to .

Maybe Valve will add more info to the Civ V Steam page before Firaxis does. For better or for worse, they are more offensive about this sort of stuff.

 

[Iceciro]

What would be really annoying to me is if I have to update games in order to play them in offline mode (or even online mode really but I have no hopes there). I very much want full control of when if and why I patch games. There is so much controversy on this issue from what I've read, it would be nice to get a clear answer from someone that absolutely 100% has the fact and is not just conjecturing or spreading rumours on the internets.

Just to help you - and ensure there's no rumormongering:

It's likely that you'll have to be patched 100% to play online, but that isn't your issue. I've been playing offline with an unpatched version of another game for some time.

 

[Avs]

I just went through this thread: http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70180

Titled "Grand Unified Steamworks Discussion Thread" which is 50+ pages long on 2kgames.

Here are the posts from Elizabeth 2k, the rep from 2k games.

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=802444&postcount=113

Elizabeth 2k

Hey guys,

I know that not everyone is a fan of Steam, but I want to try and clear up some confusion out there.

You will be able to play Civ offline using Steam. You will be able to install it on multiple computers (and play your saved games on those multiple computers!)

Please let me know if you have other questions about Steamworks - I'm going to search this thread and try and help explain anything that people may not understand.



Quote
"I'm not 100% against Steamworks, I'm just curious, what am I going to do when I want to play Civ 5 on my laptop when I have no access to an internet connection, because every single game on steam, without exception, *****es like a neutered hyena if it isn't connected to the internet and usually won't let me play at all."

Elizabeth 2k

You'll be able to play on a laptop without internet - you won't be able to access the online components (of course) but we know that the game is very portable and people want it everywhere. I, too, am one of those folks who plays Civ on airplanes (and vacations.)

Originally Posted by Shadowdragoon View Post
forced steam only = loss of sales. having BOTH versions Non-steam and a steam version = more sales it makes BOTH sides happy. thats better than just making the steam fanboys happy.

Elizabeth 2k
Steam is integral to our game and the hub for the community, which is why it's going to be on all copies (digital and retail.) Even if you play a single player game, you'll still benefit from being tied into the community - this isn't just about multiplayer!

Originally Posted by wizaerd View Post
Uh, no... 2k is making a generalization. How exactly will having access to the Steam community be of benefit to someone who doesn't give one single whit about the community?

Elizabeth 2k
A good question - I suppose that depends on the player. Steam is pretty versatile (in my opinion) in how you can install the game on multiple computers and transfer your saves easily - which I think for a single player gamer would be awesome. It also makes getting updates and mods and new content much more streamlined - so even if you just want the best single player experience and don't want to talk to or play with other gamers, you'll have a much more centralized system for keeping your game up to date and for playing on any machine you want.

ShadowDragoon
There are better ways than steam and its crap, belive me, if i buy the retail version and it contains the steam infection, il daily write supportmails to your suportdepartment whit mails like Civ5 refuses to start when the error is things like uninstalled steam, ask them to fix it and not say steam is uninstalled. or other things like that, and it will be daily tying up resources that could be used otherwise better things.

Elizabeth 2k
I'm the head of the customer support team, so I'll say ahead of time please don't do that. You won't help anyone by tying up resources, and we'll be able to tell if it is not a legitimate support issue, so you'll just be making me sad when what we're trying to do is help you.

If you want to talk to me about your specific problems with Steam and why you don't like it, I can help clarify anything for you in regard to Civ V. I don't pretend to believe everyone is a Steam fan - but I want to make sure that you have all the correct information before you make a judgment.

Originally Posted by Shadowdragoon View Post
lets see.. while playing Halflife2 i kept getting steamcrashes,
offlinemode working was like wining the lottery, since it refused to stay in offlinemode.
while recently playing TF2, kicked off server whit no steam logon message
steam not recognising that i had TF2 a couple of times
steam is a waste of 10 to 20 mb ram. so how can you fix those?

Easy, make steam optional, i dont care about multiplayer, thats the only place steam features are close to usefull, second, i dont care about cloud savegamestoring. if i want that, id make the savegamefolder a dropbox folder. not that i ever run that program, but its still a better option over steam.

Elizabeth 2k
I don't know about the problems you had with the other games, so I can't comment on that, but making Steam optional wouldn't be the best solution for you or the community as a whole. I'm confident that the connectivity issues will not be a problem for you with Civ V (and if they are, I'll help you personally resolve them) and from the tests I've been running on my machine here I don't believe your memory will suffer.

There are always features that people don't want, of course, regardless of what game you are talking about. But the features that will benefit you (content, updates!) will be better.
Reply With Quote



Originally Posted by wizaerd View Post
More generalizations. I only play on a single computer, so being able to install on multiple computers? Big deal... If I get a new computer and have disks to install from, I can reinstall whenever I need to, so no benefit there. Getting mods? Don't much care, I've never played a mod other than ones I've created so no benefit there. Getting updates, I might agree with but it'd be just as easy to build an auto update feature directly into the game, so Steam has no benefit there. So nope, no benefits that I see.

But I still have to install this useless piece of software, still have to have it on my machine not because I want it, but because you (2k) want it there. Some benefit...

Elizabeth2k
I, unfortunately, have to generalize because every player's experience and needs is going to be different. Our goal is to build a game that works for all of those individuals as well as the greater whole.

If you don't want to install the game on a lot of computers and never want mods, that's okay - you don't have to use them. You, personally, won't use Steam as much as another person, but the entire system is still the best option for the game and the community - this isn't just from us, but also from feedback we've gotten over the years.

I'm not pretending any solution we choose will be perfect for everyone. I know if you compiled the game you wouldn't have mods or extra installs - but I'm sure you understand why we'd want that in the game and why other gamers like it, too.

Originally Posted by Greybriar View Post
What if we don't want to be tied "into the community"? What if we WANT a choice?

Thanks for the clarification, though. Now I know for sure that I will NOT be purchasing Civ5.

E2k
You don't have to use any feature you don't want to, of course. I'm sure you'll still likely want the updates at the very least.

I think the ideal situation is to make a game that has the features as many people as possible want with the easiest platform so that those who don't want to use those features don't have to. You definitely won't have to be part of the community if you don't want to - although you'll be missed.


E2k
You can definitely play Steam offline, and register it via a dialup connection. I don't know if you can get the updates offline and transfer them via a thumbdrive - let me check in on that one.


E2k
Helkyn - What about Steam do you dislike so much? We're not trying to trample any hardcore fans as as someone whose played Civ since the first game when I was a wee lass, I have to say the last thing I'd want to be part of is a move to harm people like us.


E2k
Steamworks, for us, is about much more than just piracy. It's a method of delivering the game, keeping the community together, and updating along the way.


Originally Posted by nerd View Post
I appreciate your help, but.......on Cities XL, the downloads restart from the beginning if interupted. On Cities XL, you cannot do ANYTHING until it does its required updates...NOTHING!
I don't mean to be rude, but I think I would just as soon wait for 2K Elizabeth to answer my questions, speaking for the company, as it is her that needs to assure me I won't be wasting my money.......But thanks anyway.

E2k
I don't think I'll have that answer for you within a day or two (to manage your expectations) - but I wouldn't condemn our game because of another one we didn't develop. Just give us a fair shot.

 

[Chalks]

Fantastic post, Avs, thanks for that.

On the updates issue at the end - you can turn off updates and that should resolve that individual's problem.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Thanks for that post. Did they say anything about Macs and Steam? I tried searching the forum, but the form for searching wants me to give the name of somebody, and wants me to do math, and I'm hoping you'd have remembered if that popped up.