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[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. royal62184

    royal62184 Prince

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    I’ve always wanted to create a stone age mod, but I didn’t really get introduced to Civ IV until BTS and never got around to making a significant mod other than XML which anybody could do. This time I’m going to try it when the tools are released. I started with the tech tree today after reading a bunch of websites and looking at Quot Capita (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=261143) and Stone Age Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=327654). Please let me know what you think about anything. There is already a lot of discussion about Stone Age in several other forums so I don’t take credit for anything of this.

    Most of I’ve read in the last few weeks has stated the Mesolithic era (the last part of the Stone Age) started somewhere around 10,000 B.C. The end of the era has varied depending on the region but all references I’ve read states the end of the Mesolithic era is agriculture. So, I based my tech tree off of that.

    What I had envisioned for my stone age mod is just like in the Quot Capita kind of. Never played the mod but from the thread I believe it would be similar. First, your city would follow a nomadic lifestyle moving from place to place where ever food is present. There would be two different kinds of “workers”: gatherers and hunters. The gatherers would gather food from sources such as grain, wheat, etc while the hunters gathered food from sources such as bison, cow, deer, etc. After a set amount of turns the food source would be temporarily exhausted for a number of turns which would force the nomadic village to pack up and move. The exhausted resource would come back after a set number of turns, so it’s not wiped off the map completely but not quick enough you would want to stay in the same place. With the tech river fishing it would allow you to get food from any river nearby. I would still want to promote grains and animals so I don’t want to the river to be a great source of food. This is the basics of what I had in mind and I have a few more concepts at the end. And last, I don’t want this era to be extremely long either. You’ll notice in the two links that there are 20-30 techs in this era. I think people would get bored if you followed the nomadic lifestyle with one city for a really long time but that is just my opinion. So, I don’t have as many techs as that (15). I could add a bunch more but opted not to for this reason. Below is my explanation for my tech placement. It would be a lot easier to get comments if I explain my reasoning.

    Gathering – I really like how ever leader in the game in Civ 5 starts with the same technology. It also makes a lot of sense after doing my research why they choose agriculture. Agriculture represents the end of the Mesolithic Era and the beginning of the Neolithic Era or what we call the ancient era. So I wanted to follow this methodology and I thought gathering would be a good starting place.

    Hunting – Hunting really kind of make sense on its own but I wanted to follow the agriculture methodology like in Civ 5 so I made gathering a prerequisite.

    Fire – I figured they had to gather up wood in order to burn it so gathering seems like a logical prerequisite.

    Stone Tools – They also had to gather up stone to develop the tools so gathering seemed like a logical prerequisite.

    River Fishing – Stone tools and hunting are prerequisites for this technology. I figured they needed stone tools in order to actually fish and you are also hunting. It may be better to Cutting tools as a prerequisite. I couldn’t decide.

    Basketry – I had a hard time placing this and there really isn’t any logic behind it. Open to suggestions.

    Clay Pottery – Pottery during this time period was done using clay and fire so I figured fire would a logical prerequisite.

    Pigments – One of the primary pigments of the time period was Ochre which was derived from clay. I figure they had to dig up the clay using stone tools so it seemed like a logical prerequisite. Other pigments of the era were charcoal from burning wood so I added fire as a prerequisite.

    Cutting Tools – Using stone tools as a prerequisite seems logical to me I can’t really add anything there.

    Petroglyph, Rock Art, Jewelry – Petroglyph is an early form of communication on stone. So I figured they had to cut the rock (cutting tools) and write on it using pigments. The other two technologies pretty much used the same principle. Rock art and jewelry are dead techs on purpose. I figure they could lead to some early culture buildings as a reward.

    Ceremonial Burial – Requires petroglyph as prerequisite. In case they want to write on the gravesite I thought they would use a petroglyph but I don’t really know. Open to suggestions.

    Basic Construction – requires basketry and cutting tools. I figure cutting tools are needed to cut the necessary material. I figure basketry is a version of even simpler construction so it seemed logical in my mind anyways.

    Sedentary Lifestyle – I wanted to pull the tech tree together before leading to agriculture so I choose ceremonial burial, basic construction, river fishing, and clay pottery. This should leave only rock art and jewelry as not necessary.

    OTHER IDEAS
    1. Resources Ideas – Wood, Bone, Stone, Shell, Antler, Berries, Nuts, Basalt, Sandstone, obsidian, Bison, and Amber
    2. Units would be limited to a certain range around the nomadic settlement. In my mind the farther ways from the settlement, the harder it would have been to get the food back to the settlement.
    3. I thought city states wouldn’t show up until Ancient era but I don’t know.
    4. Obviously no settlers would be allowed until sedentary lifestyle or agriculture.
    5. I thought about the idea the food itself moved. (i.e. every turn each food source such as cattle, deer, bison, etc. had a random chance of moving to another hex). Do this instead of the food getting consumed or they could both be done in conjunction.
    6. Getting food from rivers would be unlocked after river fishing. I was thinking it would give very little food in comparison to the other sources but would be a neat addition.

    I think it is important for ROM to get the Stone Age the way you guys want it because the rest of the tech tree adds to it. And I remember changing the XML that if you change something at the beginning of the tech tree it affects everything and is extremely tedious. These are just my ideas let me know what you think. Try not to be too harsh I’m not the most creative guy. I just got the information from google after reading for a few days.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I don't mean to volunteer people - but I believe calvitix said he would be willing to translate to French for us. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong calvitix ;) )
     
  3. os79

    os79 Deity

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    SINCERELY, SINCERELY hope there is no such thing as Stone Age. I tend to 10,000BCE as the earliest date. Any more past before that would send the game into fantasy territory. Fantasy have its place, not here. IMO.
     
  4. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    What's fantastical about the Stone Age? 10,000 BC was around the beginning of the Neolithic Era.
     
  5. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Not necessarily. When in action an army against an army would be the special case especially if you need a GG to make one. However I think an army should get almost the same number and types of attacks as the units that make it up, but not move into the spot of defeated unit until the last attack and at the discretion of the player. So if your army has two warriors and an archer it may get three attacks (note it can still move before attacking as usual) against three units as you see fit. After which you may move into one of the defeated and destroyed unit plots or not.

    Perhaps there needs to be a "run away" option (not human option but an option for the unit) for when things go pear shaped.;)
     
  6. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    A lot of people here seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel, when we already (by we, I mean Zappara, of course :p) invented plenty of those. RoM is a great mod. We don't need to develop a tech tree, we already have one. We already have all (or most) of the buildings. Admittedly, we're still working on the units and such, but it would be silly to scrap everything we've learned from Civ4.
     
  7. Arrorn

    Arrorn Chieftain

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    I can do Japanese if someone really wants it, or Civ5 can support it. I guess I could write it in Romaji (English characters.)
     
  8. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Cities before 10,000 BCE? Way too rare, if any. In this one case Realism definitely! > Gameplay.
     
  9. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I completely agree. I don't like the idea of a stone age. Those who want a stone age mod can go make a stone age mod themselves.
     
  10. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Talking about Navies what about the land units whole Civ5 "embark" function that turns land units into transport ships? I really have missed the whole transporting units in other units. I would have liked to transport land units in land vehicles or even air vehicles too.
     
  11. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Woo. I was just about to post stuff on the prehistoric era and planning out techs. You have covered most of the stuff I was going to suggest. Here are just some addational ideas ...

    First when you start out with the game you would get like a warrior and that's it. The warrior goes along fighting animals or "goody huts". Note that barbarian encampments would not be spawned until you reach the ancient era.

    As you gain xp you can get a promotion to settle a city. You can either keep your nomadic life or settle down. Note that once you make a city you would instantly advance to the Ancient era.

    What you would want to get is finding goodies huts to discover prehistoric techs. depending upon which open you found would determine what civilization you ended up playing at ancient era. Thus to begin with you would be a genetic non-civilization.

    EDIT: Some more things to note if we are getting on accuracy early hominods could do some tech already ...

    Australopithecus
    - Gathering (mostly fruits and bugs)
    - Basic Tools (such as sticks to get termites or stones to crack nuts)

    Homo habilis
    - Scavenging (Mostly carrion)
    - Stone Tool (The first stone tools)

    Homo erectus
    - Fire Making
    - Hand Axe

    So really once you get to Homo sapiens (aka humans) they should have Gathering, Stone Tools, and Fire Making. Possibly even language or ritualism.

    EDIT2:

    Note to people against this era then just start your game at ancient setting and it would be like a normal game.

    But I hope that when making this there is space left for it. Unlike in civ4 where you would have to move every tech over, perhaps before making the tree the room on the tech tree could be left for the mod to be made. In addition the starting tech could match up to work. In other words even if it doesn't get in the official RoM mod, that RoM leaves space for it to be added.

    But really I would love to see a prehistoric era in RoM since that is my favorite era.
     
  12. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I disagree, completely, Stone Age is just what this needs (my opinion)

    You guys aren't one of "those", i cant think of the name of those religious fanatics:satan:
    (yeah what he said in post 154:splat: ) that believe there were no Dinosaurs etc:old:. (No offense to anyone)

    The Stone age as in the Prehistoric one available for RoM now, does a pretty good job of new techs and buildings and "they" are not called cities, they are called tribes back then.

    But i also believe not going any further than 10,000 BC.

    EDIT:
    Now i like that idea.


    Dont take me too seriously, i like to joke around.:joke:
     
  13. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Dinosaurs ceased to exist sixty-five million years ago. Whilst I would like a Stone Age mod, dinosaurs and humans never met!
     
  14. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Creationists is the name you are looking for. No. We're not. It doesn't sound fun, that's why.
     
  15. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Yeah there were no dinosaurs with the cavemen (unless you count birds as modern dinosaurs). This is not the Flintstones people. However there were plenty of prehistoric animals that existed while modern humans were roaming around, such as mammoths, woolly rhinos, giant wombats, etc; in short the mega-fauna. Its still debated if it was the climate change or people (or both) that helped in their extinction. In fact there is a really good book on this subject called "Future Evolution" by paleontologist Peter Ward. I highly recommend it if your a paleo-geek like myself.
     
  16. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Not creationist either. I even "Like"ed Dawkins' book God Delusion in Facebook. It is just weird in general. But OK. If there does happen to be anything before 10kBCE and there is a well-oiled and functioning Ancient start option, then I can just ignore it as long as it doesn't mess up my start :p.
     
  17. sresk

    sresk Chieftain

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    not to derail the thread but there's a great fossil park in texas with fossils of human foot prints and dinosaur intermingled, also some really fascinating cave paintings and pottery art of men hunting dinosaurs along side mammoths. Not a creationist or evolutionist myself but leave it that no one "really" knows how long ago men fist came into their modern form and no one really knows how long ago dinosaurs finally died out.

    All we do know is that our current fossil record is incomplete and that carbon dateing can be inaccurate by orders of magnitude... but none of that has anything to do with a pre-history mod. I agree with some above that a stone age/nomad game might be fun but that dinosaurs don't really fit in civ
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    My response to the tracks ...

    Source: http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm

    In short these types of claims get a life of their own even after being debunked. Similar to how urban legends get retold over and over even if they have been tested to be false (ex. any Mythbusters show). But that's the beauty of science. If people don't believe you they can go and test it themselves. Repeatability is the cornerstone of the scientific method.
     
  19. royal62184

    royal62184 Prince

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    I don't think the mod needs dinosaurs or anything that far fetched and I only was thinking it would start at 10,000 BC. Everything in the tech tree I read about and can provide a source to if needed. Sounds like there is a lot of opposition to this so i'll try to do this in my own spare time. Sorry I derailed the thread.
     
  20. os79

    os79 Deity

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    SDK is here now.

    For you artists there is Nexus there. You can play with it and get ready for this team's requests, etc :lol:.

    Just go to "Tools" in Steam, then download Civ 5 SDK.

    Though you may need to download this first before installing Civ5 SDK.
     

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