[R&F] Civ of the Week: Greece

[acluewithout]

• Leader: Gorgo and Pericles [Alternate Leaders].
  
  
• Leader Ability: (Gorgo) Thermopylae. Combat victories provide culture equal to 50% of the Combat Strength of the defeated unit.

• Leader Ability: (Pericles) Surrounded by Glory. +5% Culture per City State you are Suzerain of.
  
  
• Civ Ability: Platos Republic. Gain +1 Wild Card slot.
  
  
• Unique Unit: Hoplite. Anti-Cav unit that replaces the Spearman (upgrades to Pikeman). Melee Strength 25, Move 2, Production Cost 65, Maintenance 1, +10 v Cavalry (all the same as a Spearman). Gains +10 Strength when adjacent to at lease one Hoplite unit.
  
  
• Unique Infrastructure: Acropolis. Unique District (requires one District Slot). Unlocks at Drama and Poetry, Cost 27 (vs. 54), Maintenance 1. Must be built on a Hill Tile (unlike the Theatre Square). Like the base Theatre District, it provides +1 Great Writer, +1 Great Artist, and +1 Great Musician points, and allows you to run Theatre Square Performances Project (Culture and Great Writer, Artist and Musician Points equal to 15% of Production Used).

• Like the base Theatre District, the base district yield for the Acropolis is Culture. Just like the base district, you receive a Major Adjacency (+2) bonus for each adjacent World Wonder; but unlike a standard TD, you also get a Standard Adjacency (+1) for each adjacent Districts, a Major Adjacency bonus (+2) if adjacent to you City Centre, and +1 Envoy when Completed.
  
  
• Leader Agenda: (Gorgo) With Your Shield Or On It. Will not give up items in peace deals, and favours Civilizations who have the same approach; dislikes Civilizations who capitulate in wars or who have never gone to war.

• Leader Agenda: (Pericles) Delian League. Favours Civilizations that aren't competing for the same City State allegiances. Dislikes Civilizations that are directly competing for City State allegiances

• Interesting links: [Sorry, running a bit late this week - these will come later today!]

Notes:

• Greece has a Hill Start Bias - and hills, of course, give you mines and therefore more production.
  
  
• Gorgo's leader ability works on Barbarians, as well as City State's and other Civilization's units.
  
  
• Hoplites had a bug where they always got their extra +10 melee strength, not just when they were adjacent to another Hoplite. Per @Disgustipated this has been fixed (see below).
  
  
• The Acropolis, like all Unique Districts, is half the cost of the base district.
  
  
• Greece's Wild Card slots makes it quite good at getting a Religion. First, you can run both God King and Urban Planning after unlocking Code of Laws, which allows you to get a Pantheon sooner. Second, your Pantheon is the Eureka for Mysticism, allowing that to unlock faster. Third, once you unlock Mysticism, you can run Revelations (+2 Great Prophet Points) before unlocking your First Tier Government, which lets you compete for a Great Prophet earlier. (And, of course, any additional culture helps you push to your First Tier Government which can also boost getting a Religion.)

[edit: corrections ... some bigger than others]

 

[Disgustipated]

I'll try to check on the hoplite bug soon. I'm not aware if that has been fixed. I do plan a Hoplite rush on *spoiler* here soon. edit: I verified I don't incorrectly get this bonus. Only when adjacent.

Here is my start if anyone wants to play this game. King difficulty. Pretty much standard everything. Barbs on.

No early pantheon for me in my current Pericles game. Divine Spark seems like a good Pantheon with Greece since you are going to be building Acropolis anyways since it's a good half price district. And for that reason, cultural victory seems the easiest with Greece and suits them best.

Ideally I'd like to play Gorgo this week for comparison, we'll see if I have time. I can't go over a lot with Pericles since I've never played a real game with him. Gorgo has been a while, but I found being pretty aggressive in the beginning gives you so much culture you fly through the first half of the civics tree (I had stopped warring in my game at the end of the classical age), and if you keep going, you should fly through all of it getting you earlier corps and armies. So Gorgo has more flexibility than Pericles in my opinion. She is better suited for Conquest victory as well as Cultural victory.

 

[KayAU]

It's been a while since I played a Greece game. Here's a quick assessment of their abilities as I see them:

Leader Ability - Thermopylae (Gorgo): This is a pretty good ability, and perhaps especially as a source of early game culture. Hunting down barbarians in the early game is good for anyone, as it will earn you gold and era points. For Gorgo, it is even better, as it will propel you towards the more advanced forms of governments.
Leader Ability - Surrounded by Glory (Pericles): Not as useful in the beginning, but I always tend to end up as suzerain of most city states. At that point, this will provide a great amount of culture. Very good.
Civ Ability - Platos Republic: It doesn't get much more straightforward than this. An extra policy card right from the start is an excellent bonus, and being a wildcard slot makes it very flexible.
Unique Unit - Hoplite: Same stats as a regular Spearman, gains a +10 combat bonus when next to another Hoplite. Hmm. I'm not quite sure what to make of this one. I rarely use Spearmen, but they have a somewhat interesting upgrade tree. Normally, I rate early game unit replacements highly, but this one is not too useful, I think.
Unique Infrastructure - Acropolis: Another good ability. Unique districts are generally pretty good just by being half cost. This one has a slight disadvantage in that it requires a hill, but it more than makes up for it with its abilities. The additional adjacency bonus for the city centre is good, the free envoy they added last year is very good. It also synergizes with Pericles' ability.

Overall, I think Greece is a very good civ, with some powerful abilities clearly geared towards rapid political and cultural development. It suits the historical Greece well, I think.

 

[Disgustipated]

as I see a conquered city state of Kabul (Cleopatra conquered it), I definitely think liberating city states as Pericles can be advantageous, and I do plan to do that.

 

[Sostratus]

Unique Infrastructure: Acropolis. ... Receives a Standard Adjacency (+1) bonus for each adjacent World Wonder and Standard Adjacency (+1) for each two adjacent Districts. Acropolis also uniquely provides a Major Adjacency bonus (+2) if adjacent to you City Centre, and +1 Envoy when Completed.

Quick notes: in game it appears that the acropolis is indeed affected by that fall or winter patch buffing theater squares to get +2 from each wonder; further, the acropolis also gets +1 from each district like japan would. See a screengrab of a quick thing I fired up to show evidence:

Spoiler :

The top left spot is only next to the IZ (+1); the top middle spot is next to a city (+2), wonder (+2), and IZ (+1); the top right has the IZ (+1), Gov't Plaza (+1 and +1), and wonder (+2). The bottom right has only the wonder (+2).

The in game text now reflects this although it's a bit misleading- the city center bonus is +1 for the city center and +1 for being next to a district, netting to +2.

Spoiler :

Given that, Greece has unbelievable culture generation ability in the early game if they manage to snag a wonder or two in a decent spot. An acropolis between a City, wonder, district, is +5, and pretty easy to achieve. 5 culture in the ancient or classical is a crazy amount- could be half of what you're producing! Obviously, Apadana is a choice wonder for this trick to get the envoy convoy started.

Plato's republic is such a fun ability because you can do so many crazy opening policies. The Forbidden Palace from turn one, for free!

If spearmen/anti cav were generally more useful, the hoplite would also be a monster. As it stands, two Hoplites with 1 promotion (thrust) can form an early 45 strength bulwark against enemy melee and cavalry. The only issue is that enemy swords natively get 46 strength vs spears, which is depressing for the phalanx lovers. Greece don't have as obvious of benefits as the civs who get "free stuff" like Rome or the Aztecs, but they have a lot of hidden power.

 

[kb27787]

Id put Gorgo right up there as a semi-luck based version of Gilga. He gets +2 science +1 culture, she gets around 10 culture from killing barb warriors, horsemen, and spears (for ranged barbs the melee strength is used, unfortunately so barb slingers give a measly 2 culture) the only leader where I am happy to see an early barb invasion. The ability loses steam past the classic age but as early culture is so important, this makes her one of the most easiest leaders to play.

Pericles is so clearly a whole tier below her at least. Given the fact that AIs love eating up CS his LUA is quite useless.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I'll try to check on the hoplite bug soon. I'm not aware if that has been fixed. I do plan a Hoplite rush on *spoiler* here soon. edit: I verified I don't incorrectly get this bonus. Only when adjacent.

Here is my start if anyone wants to play this game. King difficulty. Pretty much standard everything. Barbs on.

No early pantheon for me in my current Pericles game. Divine Spark seems like a good Pantheon with Greece since you are going to be building Acropolis anyways since it's a good half price district. And for that reason, cultural victory seems the easiest with Greece and suits them best.

Ideally I'd like to play Gorgo this week for comparison, we'll see if I have time. I can't go over a lot with Pericles since I've never played a real game with him. Gorgo has been a while, but I found being pretty aggressive in the beginning gives you so much culture you fly through the first half of the civics tree (I had stopped warring in my game at the end of the classical age), and if you keep going, you should fly through all of it getting you earlier corps and armies. So Gorgo has more flexibility than Pericles in my opinion. She is better suited for Conquest victory as well as Cultural victory.

Spoiler Description :

Your map is frustrating! A bit too much so for my taste. Warred with Japan over the wonder. Only 2 ways in. Crazy Armagh razed my city by Yosemite and the mad Japanese just knocked off 2 archers. Then again, I was in a hurry. I'm calling it a day for this map. Maybe I'll start an easy game on the deity level or what-not.

Spoiler Image :

 

[acluewithout]

@Sostratus

Thanks. Good pick up on the World Wonder - +2 not +1.

I don’t think Greece is getting +1 from the IZ in your screen shot. Instead, it gets +2 from the City Centre (which is unique to Greece), then +1 for being adjacent to two districts (the City Centre (again) and then the IZ - or you can think of the CC and IZ both providing +0.5 adjacency).

AFAIK, you always get this +0.5 bonus for adjacent districts regardless (or in additon) to any other adjacency bonus any other district gives you.

So, a Coastal City, Harbour and Commercial Hub triangle gives the Harbour +2 from the adjacency City Centre, then another +0.5 from the City Centre again, plus another +0.5 from the Commercial Hub (+3 total).

If Japan built that Harbour, they’d then get another +1 from the City Centre and +1 from the CH, in addition to the +0.5 they were already getting from those districts.

If Korea replaced the CH with a Seowan, it would get +0.5 science from the adjacent CC and Harbour, but then lose -2 adjacency from those districts because of how the Seowan works, giving it a net -1 (not -2) (although someone might want to check that).

Phew. That took a lot to explain. [edit: ... and... it’s also wrong. You get +1 for each adjacent district to the Acropolis. See enlightened discussion below.]

Anyway, the point is that district triangles using your City Centre tend to be very powerful, particularly if you have a unique district or ability which improves adjacencies anyway. Greece is a very, very good example of that.

 

[kb27787]

@Sostratus

Thanks. Good pick up on the World Wonder - +2 not +1.

I don’t think Greece is getting +1 from the IZ in your screen shot. Instead, it gets +2 from the City Centre (which is unique to Greece), then +1 for being adjacent to two districts (the City Centre (again) and then the IZ - or you can think of the CC and IZ both providing +0.5 adjacency).

AFAIK, you always get this +0.5 bonus for adjacent districts regardless (or in additon) to any other adjacency bonus any other district gives you.

So, a Coastal City, Harbour and Commercial Hub triangle gives the Harbour +2 from the adjacency City Centre, then another +0.5 from the City Centre again, plus another +0.5 from the Commercial Hub (+3 total).

If Japan built that Harbour, they’d then get another +1 from the City Centre and +1 from the CH, in addition to the +0.5 they were already getting from those districts.

If Korea replaced the CH with a Seowan, it would get +0.5 science from the adjacent CC and Harbour, but then lose -2 adjacency from those districts because of how the Seowan works, giving it a net -1 (not -2) (although someone might want to check that).

Phew. That took a lot to explain.

Anyway, the point is that district triangles using your City Centre tend to be very powerful, particularly if you have a unique district or ability which improves adjacencies anyway. Greece is a very, very good example of that.

No, Acropolis gets +1 from adjacent districts instead of the standard +0.5 (this will become obvious if you try placing it away from the city center). If you put it away from the CC but next to only a plaza it will be +2.

City center unique bonus is actually +1 which is regardless of it being a district by itself (similar to how a government plaza works), but since the city center itself is a district, it gets another +1, leading to +2.

Hence, if you put the acropolis next to city center and goverment plaza it will be +4 even without any wonders (+1 from CC, +1 from plaza, +2 from adjacent districts)

 

[Disgustipated]

Spoiler :

Your map is frustrating! A bit too much so for my taste. Warred with Japan over the wonder. Only 2 ways in. Crazy Armagh razed my city by Yosemite and the mad Japanese just knocked off 2 archers. Then again, I was in a hurry. I'm calling it a day for this map. Maybe I'll start an easy game on the deity level or what-not.

Spoiler :

interesting results. I didn't have trouble with Aragh thankfully, as I didn't have much defense up there. I settled South of the river 3 tiles from the iron specifically to get the iron. My hoplite rush worked well On all of Japan, and the Western Egypt cities which is all I want. I liberated Kabul specifically to be their Suzerain. Nobody else nearby to liberate unfortunately. I supported my hoplite rush with only 2 to 3 archers which was emough. But against Egypt I had swordsman which is so much more effective against cities even with the + 10 bonus for my hoplites.

Overall my game is going well. I need to load up before and after saved to see how much culture I am getting from that 5%, because 5% doesn't seem like a lot to me. I have one Suzerain now of Kabul I mentioned above. I'll post results when I get home and load up the game.

 

[ezzlar]

At higher difficulties you meet a lot of barbs and captured CS. Gorgo should then be the better leader of the two.

 

[acluewithout]

@Sostratus @kb27787 Fair enough. Sorry I got that wrong. I’ll amend the description.

 

[Victoria]

Pericles is so clearly a whole tier below her at least. Given the fact that AIs love eating up CS his LUA is quite useless.

This is incorrect. With R&F changes nerfing science the best civ for a science victory is Peri
I play Gorgo a lot and Peri a little. Peri is just too strong.

The fact that the AI takes CS in fact helps Peri, conquer and free the CS and gain Suze. This puts you 3 Envoys in front per CS this is done with ignoring the fact taht others lost CS. The secret is to keep your envoys until you know what you can control. This provides frightening strength mid-late game. Add to this that Greece gains additinal envoys still for each Acropolis and you end up being suze of pretty much anything. If not then conquer it to destroy the envoys, let if flip to free and liberate it, wrong I know but then the whole loyalty thing is littered with issues.

Gorgo is great but play ten games up to turn 50 and tell me how many times you got to Pol Phil before turn 40. The reality is you may shave a turn or two off but its not blinding and soon dies. The issue with Gorgo is she outstrips the inspirations early so its not really a bonus, more of an ease to get to Pol Phil before 50 which should be a general aim... maybe a bit loinger when pushing theaters.

I played an awful lot with Hoplites, it was better when they did not rely on adjacency but even then the critical thing they miss is an anti ranged promotion and also Cav get a creat bonus promotion against spears. If they fixed these then it would be an interesting game for spears but of course everyone has a different design they think is best. The +10 greece gets makes them useable but not scary good.

Playing as England you get an apalling start position a lot of the time and Greece is the opposite. One of their best assets is a hill start, just makes you run faster from the outset.

The theater adjacency fix make acropolis good, the extra envoy twinned with Peri makes them very strong. Combined with the fact that it will eventually cause your science to skyrocket makes Peri highly rated amongst very good players, much more so than Gorgo.

 

[RealHuhn]

Haven't played Greece in a while. I agree with Victoria. Pericles seems better or at least more interesting to me.

The question is: Which wonders should I go for? I'd like to get an early one to unlock theatres faster. Apadana on Deity seems to be a gamble but I think I'll try this first. If it always fails, maybe standard Oracle? Always helps, especially for early great scientists and writers.

After that Kilwa Kisiwani seems to be an extremely obvious choice. Then start a ton of liberation wars ^^

A religion with +culture per shrine/temple could be amazing as well but I think it'll slow down science too much.

 

[Victoria]

Kilwa Kisiwani

This is a must for Pericles and the Ai does not seem to target it, perhaps the requirement of being on the coast is too difficult.

 

[acluewithout]

... If they fixed these then it would be an interesting game for spears but of course everyone has a different design they think is best...

There are quite a few things like spears in the game: broken or not good, plenty of ways to fix (perhaps some ways better than others), but 18 months on, just not fixed. And, no, I don't mean the AI.

@Victoria Good point about liberating CSs for the envoys. That's very clever.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

The question is: Which wonders should I go for? I'd like to get an early one to unlock theatres faster. Apadana on Deity seems to be a gamble but I think I'll try this first. If it always fails, maybe standard Oracle?

According to our experience, Pyramid is the best choice, then Oracle. Only Qin can build Apadana with small price and good effect.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Greece is a pretty straightforward choice and there's not really much about them. But you don't have to be good at everything; just really good at something.

They have the best bias in game; hill bias and that allows them to get going faster. Gorgo is even better since with the extra culture, she can get a faster government just by getting culture. The extra wildcard slot lets you take production and faith together and also serves as added insurance against a Dark Age because you can always slot something there too. In particular double science/isolationism/or even Twilight Valor for your crappy hoplites. They also can pursue Great Generals very easily. So that's a lot of ways to get ahead.

Pericles' ability is not as good as Gorgo's but if you liberate CS's, especially after the balance change where liberation envoys scale, you have good incentive to keep CS's alive.

The Acropolis is basically Greece's answer to the Seowon, or maybe it's vice versa. The hill restriction is annoying, but it's also better with envoys and adjacency bonuses.

 

[Disgustipated]

Gorgo is great but play ten games up to turn 50 and tell me how many times you got to Pol Phil before turn 40.

This seems to be one of those situations where slower game speeds equals more advantage. I've found I can get through political philosophy quite fast with Gorgo. Although perhaps the culture per kills is balanced with game speed? Does anyone know? Even if that's the case, it still seems like you have more opportunities for combat, and thus more culture. I'm an epic player, otherwise I feel like the game and eras go by too fast.

 

[Morningcalm]

I really do think Greece has the simplest and most dull civilization design of all. Not only are their leader and civilization abilities one-note, so is their unique unit. And the free delegates for building Acropolis are a great deal less potent given Rise and Fall allows spy missions to essentially kill rival delegates at citystates. Would that Pericles had a Great Person bonus of some kind (an allusion to the Athenian Golden Age), or Gorgo a defense bonus for wounded infantry (an allusion to Spartan resilience).

I do like that Gorgo allows rapid civics research from early on though. I echo others who find her more flexible and potent than Pericles.

I find Pericles underwhelming gameplay wise and appearance wise (looks like Solon, not the real Pericles, who would never have looked so frail). It's rare to be suzerain long enough for the 5% to matter, and even allied Civs can attack your suzerained citystates with relative impunity (!!). Not to mention that the AI still loves attacking citystates. When playing as Australia I love this, because it means I can endlessly liberate citystates for production boosts. As Greece I grit my teeth and change from Pericles the Cultural to Pericles the Cutthroat.