pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Mexico

pre-release info
Thanks Eagle, you put it perfectly. Santa Ana is a part of our history we really are not proud of, and in the context of a list of Revolucionarios I can't avoid feeling like he was added to keep Americans happy so they could replay the Alamo. To me It's equivalent to having someone like Victoriano Huerta in that list.

again, I'd rather see Madero, Zaragoza, Belisario Dominguez, Carranza or Obregon in that spot.
So you are okay with 'Army of Cowgirls' rather than pround army of REAL MEN from the Napoleonic era? Before Juarez, and even before and after Santa Ana. Mexico has REAL Army of Real men and Real prestigious look. not a band of bandits, rustlers, train robbers, and cowgirls.
 
I think I explained myself before. I'm happy with an army of mixed gender that represent the people at arms, much more representative of our struggles as a nation rather than an ideal of the perfect Napoleonic army that Santa Ana was going for.

Militia was a central part of military struggles since forever, during independence, at the Reforma and battle of Puebla, and during the revolution.

and yes I'd rather proudly be side at aside with an Adelita, thank you very much.


oh I almost forgot PD: Santa Ana delenda est.
 
So you are okay with 'Army of Cowgirls' rather than pround army of REAL MEN from the Napoleonic era? Before Juarez, and even before and after Santa Ana. Mexico has REAL Army of Real men and Real prestigious look. not a band of bandits, rustlers, train robbers, and cowgirls.
I could get behind the point that it’s historically and functionally inaccurate to have Soldaderas as the core infantry unit, but shouting “honorable real men” in all caps is not as strong of an argument as you think it is.
 
I think I explained myself before. I'm happy with an army of mixed gender that represent the people at arms,
Still. Californios (cavalry, there can be also alternative names either me or you can think of) represented this WAAAY Better than those army of outlaws. They were proud defenders of nation you're so pround of today.

So how do you define 'Mexican National Identity'. Is it okay if the World (and Anglophonic America) viewed you as a nation of outlaws of all kinds (Since Juarez, and even today) rathern than a proud nation on par with European Kingdoms and Empires?

Are drug cartels something you're really proud of?

I'm not mexican, yet i'm still very ashamed of it.
That's why I am AGAINST those cowgirls as standard infantry.

ADDENDUM: The other name of my recommended UU is Lanceros. Mexican lancers are one of the best and not just Vaqueroes. There also regular lancers and some American defects and European auxilias as well.
 
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Nor any need to yell about "real men" pretty much ever.

Nor any need to tell the people of another country which parts of their history they should feel attachment to, and which parts they shouldn't. Like...seriously?
 
Moderator Action: Closed for review.
 
Moderator Action: Please continue this discussion in a civil manner. This discussion of "Real Men" needs to cease. Thank you.
Thread reopened
 
So I guess Firaxis did not wanted to make CIV7's Mexico too similar to Humankind's Mexico and CIV6's Gran Colombia. Still as a Mexican I would like to have...
> HACIENDA (Mexican UD)
* Capilla, being many times far from proper towns each hacienda had their own small churches for their religious needs. Most contemporary haciendas turned into touristic resorts that rent these chapels for weddings. Religion+Tourism boost.​
* Lienzo, started as the place to handle cattle but it turned into a sport arena, basically the older Mexican Rodeo. Charreria is the national sport of Mexico, Charros horsemen were originally the hacienda masters and their foremen that were also the source of New Spain and independent Mexico cavalry corps included famous ones like the Rurales. Military+Happiness boost.​
* Palenque, is the place were Agave pencas are procesed, fermented and destilled to optain the Mezcal (included Tequila) liquor. This provide us an unique resourse the Mezcal(Tequila) from the Agave plants and bonus to production. Production+Culture boost.​

Anyway there are others options like:
* Tianguis, instead of Portal de Mercaderes it could have an actually unique characteristic, this market rather than take a building slot it is a "road improve" tha would turn the quarter streets into a busy market day.​
* Camposanto, instead of Catedral, in Mexico the Atrio of churches turned to be a very significative place since the Capillas Abiertas were a syncretic way to introduce the Mesoamerican population into the Catholic rites. Even more since Atrios were a holy place to bury people and the Panteones have Capillas, in game we can have this mix represented.​

About the Celebration part is obvious that Firaxis want the "Fiesta and Siesta" stereotype for Mexico, so lets have actual traditions instead of political manifest:
* Guelaguetza tradition, the great representation of dances from the many cultures and celebrations (Calendas) of the diverse state of Oaxaca. Happiness in settlements bonus.​
* Charreadas tradition, in absence of Hacienda and the mexican Charros (Lanceros, Rurales, Chinacos, etc.) the ranching tradition could still provide the combat strenght bonus. So Charrería, Mariachi and Tequila for Jalisco representation.​
* Animecha Kejizitakua tradition, the Día de los Muertos as is mostly know is based in the particular way this remembrance of the deceased is commemorated by the Purepecha people of Michoacan. Perfect for the bonus about culture in towns.​
* Fiestas Patrias, the civic calendar of relevant dates that changed Mexico´s history, the revolutions and the pantheon of political figures. The progressist discourse of the last 150 years justify the science focus.​

Now if we talk about the civics from where those traditions come, in their corresponding order these are:
> Cacicazgo, the spanish conquest of Mesoamerica was possible only by the cooperation of native elites that preserved most of their privileges, at the point that today in Mexico any person that exercise local abusive leadership is also called a Cacique.​
> Hacendados, now we have another form of exploitative elite, the criollo landowners of great ranchs, plantations and mines, some of these have their origins in the Encomenderos during the conquest.​
> La Guadalupana, the Nuestra Señora Guadalupe or the Virgen del Tepeyac is the top simbol of Mexican syncretic religiocity, native converter and first national banner since the start of the war for independence, so a mexican icon that even some of the "not so religious" presidents had recognized her identitarian role.​
> Muralismo, the arts at the service of the ideological discourse of early 20th century. The building of a new national identiy and the political agenda with the signature of great figures like Diego Rivera (but maybe most people remember more his wife Frida Kahlo).​

In the topic of the units:
* Yes I agree that Soldaderas is a more unique unit, but the previous CIV's ways to represent units is a cheap excuse to keep poor representations (by the way the new system of armies is also the chance to have limited unique units that better cover the many UU besed on elite corps). For example Soldaderas would fit better as support units that boost and heal others militar units plus a decent ability to fight back by themselves. If the idea was to have irregular/insurgent troops (other thing that civs could represent as different units instead of groups of Bazookas) the "La Bola" is a more folkloric and dark way to represent what be part of La Revolución really means. But I guess be in cyclical fraticide revolutions is the way we Mexicans war the most.

Talking about "Civil War" the civ!... I mean Mexico, the names Cuadillismo and Caudillo are more unique an proper than "Revolución" and Revolucionario.
By the way the list of Firaxis Revolucionarios have some "trivia" figures instead of relevant ones. My list of 10 would be more like:
* Miguel Hidalgo
* José María Morelos
* Vicente Guerrero
* Antonio López de Santa Anna (hated but he not only help for American recognition but also certainly fit as a Caudillo).​
* Porfirio Díaz (as the caudillo of La Reforma since he was a militar unlike Benito Juarez that should be istead the leader for Mexico)​
* Emiliano Zapata
* Venustiano Carranza
* Pancho Villa
* Plutarco Elías Calles
* Lázaro Cárdenas
As a whole these figures are example of the classic "You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain".

Well, maybe I was expecting something better for Mexico than Firaxis design, but I guess AoE3's Mexico lovely design with similar themes spoiled me.
 
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Soldaderas are not special. In my impression, there are also a large number of similar women in Peru who help their soldier husbands to plunder the countryside (or other countries in Latin America). As a military unit, shouldn't UU be selected from soldiers who have won great victories or achieved military advantages in history? Mexico's military advantage lies in their cavalry. They have won amazing victories in wars with European and American powers. People always praise the performance of the French Foreign Legion in Cameron, but few people know that in 1866, a group of Mexican cavalry used tactics to destroy the second battalion of the French Foreign Legion in Santa Isabel (three-quarters of the battalion and killed their battalion commander Major DeBrien). So UU should at least be a cavalry (or irregular cavalry). Californians at least defeated a group of American dragoons riding donkeys in San Pascual, but this "Actual Value" was not high, and California was soon taken away by the United States. I think a word that better represents Mexican cavalry should be used.
 
As a military unit, shouldn't UU be selected from soldiers who have won great victories or achieved military advantages in history?
I think the general philosophy behind choosing unique units has trended more towards "interesting or distinctive" than "militarily noteworthy"--not a comment on what it should be, just an observation of what it has tended to be.
 
The problem with going for successful units and units that had a military edge can be summed up in three words: success breeds imitation. It's going to be very rare that a civilization end up coming up with a new unit that achieve significant success without a half dozen other countries trying to "borrow" the design. The better the unit design, the more likely it is to be used by everyone under the sun,.

Distinctive and interesting units without much historical achievements are much easier to make into unique, because they were much less likely to be adapted and copied.
 
This is also why I am against Soldaderas, such characters are common in Latin American armies, they are not unique to Mexico. Just like cowboys have different names in Spain and Latin America. If some minor differences can be regarded as differences, then cowboys in different states of Mexico can also be different.
 
This is also why I am against Soldaderas, such characters are common in Latin American armies, they are not unique to Mexico. Just like cowboys have different names in Spain and Latin America. If some minor differences can be regarded as differences, then cowboys in different states of Mexico can also be different.
Common in Latin American armies.
Mexico is the only Latin American (colonial) civ in the game at launch.
Also, Mexico’s overall theme is the Revolutionary instability…a time when you get a lot more normally civilian people swept up into the military.
 
This is also why I am against Soldaderas, such characters are common in Latin American armies, they are not unique to Mexico. Just like cowboys have different names in Spain and Latin America. If some minor differences can be regarded as differences, then cowboys in different states of Mexico can also be different.
If Gran Colombia or Argentina gets in the game, they would most likely have Llaneros or Gauchos, which are effectively unique variations of cowboys. In that regard why not give Mexico something different, instead of possibly a third cavalry-based unit wearing a cowboy hat?
 
It doesn't have to be lance, they can use the carbine provided by the Americans, I prefer to name it charro or chinaco
 
If uniques actually have to be truly unique, then we're in for a bad time for the modern age and might as well just not have any civs there at all unless you get very technical and all uniques are vehicles of some sort, named after very specific models.

Tbh, it wouldn't work much better for the previous ages, either.
 
Truly unique no, but “not everyone used that” yes.

But yeah, historically more UUs in civ have been named a synonym or local translation of warrior, archer, spearman, etc than most anything else. And the Chevaler still are.
 
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