pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Mexico

pre-release info
I don't agree that it is silly that Persia's infantry are Immortals, because Immortals are not fundamentally different from regular infantry. Tercios are a little weird in that they're anachronistic, but that's kind of a separate issue... they were still the normal infantry for their correct period. It would be a little weird if things like bazookas or machine guns replaced the normal infantry, but they don't; they're specialty units. If the Soldaderas is a specialty unit, or if it's depicted as a mixed-gender unit, then I don't have any problem with that. But if the entire Mexican infantry is going to be an Amazon force (which seems the most likely situation), then I do think that's pretty silly.

If that doesn't bother you, that's fine... but then I have to ask, where the line is for you in terms of breaking historicity in a historical game? Or is anything and everything acceptable?
As @Eagle Pursuit noted, it may be silly but it's completely normal for Civ vis-a-vis Unique Units.

In Civ VI, virtually all Medieval Norse infantry were Berserkers, even though in reality they never numbered more than a tiny fraction of any force, and may never have formed any 'units' at all.
France's 'line' infantry in Civ VI were all Imperial Grenadiers a'pied, despite the fact that historically they only formed 2 regiments in an Imperial French Army that had over 200 regiments of regular line infantry

Those are only the worst examples that spring to mind, but in general 'Unique' Units have represented the majority of forces in any Era/Age and replaced all regular units for that Civ in that Age, regardless of reality. Like having bazookas or machineguns as separate units, which makes no sense in regard to military history, but which now seems to be 'normal' for Civ Modern Units.

I don't think there is any way any game could satisfy every gamer in depicting the massive variety of historical military factions throughout history and protohistory, so most of us will be somewhat or completely dissatisfied most of the time.

If nothing else, that will keep the Modders busy for the next few years . . .
 
As @Eagle Pursuit noted, it may be silly but it's completely normal for Civ vis-a-vis Unique Units.

In Civ VI, virtually all Medieval Norse infantry were Berserkers, even though in reality they never numbered more than a tiny fraction of any force, and may never have formed any 'units' at all.
France's 'line' infantry in Civ VI were all Imperial Grenadiers a'pied, despite the fact that historically they only formed 2 regiments in an Imperial French Army that had over 200 regiments of regular line infantry

Those are only the worst examples that spring to mind, but in general 'Unique' Units have represented the majority of forces in any Era/Age and replaced all regular units for that Civ in that Age, regardless of reality. Like having bazookas or machineguns as separate units, which makes no sense in regard to military history, but which now seems to be 'normal' for Civ Modern Units.

I don't think there is any way any game could satisfy every gamer in depicting the massive variety of historical military factions throughout history and protohistory, so most of us will be somewhat or completely dissatisfied most of the time.

If nothing else, that will keep the Modders busy for the next few years . . .
And these aren’t even the worst examples in the series!

Civ III as Sumeria your whole ancient army started as Enkidu. Civ IV the Indian unit was a “Fast Worker”, which was…not a great look and one of a few from that game which largely is the game I consider the highlight of the series

EDIT: not to mention France routinely until Civ VI got the musketeer which was pretty obscene since it was based entirely on Dumas’ popular culture contribution and the IRL King’s Musketeers would have been tiny anyway

EDIT: tiny meaning the number of men deployed, thanks Andrew lol
 
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How... how tall were they?
Average Frenchman 16th - 18th centuries was about 5 foot 7 inches tall.

It was Frederick the Great's father that was the one with the mania for Giants and recruited all over Europe for minimum 6 foot tall men for his 'special' Prussian grenadier regiment. He supposedly had some near 7 feet tall, but his son disbanded the unit as soon as he became kng because it was an expensive toy more than a military unit.

In game terms, a Unique Unit with half the combat factors and twice the maintenance costs of regular infantry which also causes you to be derided as a complete Nutter by all of your neighbors . . .
 
What if they are saving a Lancero unit (cavalry with lances) for the Llanero unique unit of a future Colombian civilization. The Llaneros were quite a bit more famous in the main battles of Bolívar's campaigns than the Californio lanceros/vaqueros.
And you think Mexican Army is 'an army of Cowgirls' is alrite to you?
In truth they aint! Soldaderas are camp followers. should instead be skirmishers rather than Infantry replacements. Santa Ana NEVER use them as frontline units. he instead had the same Napoleonic Army with him. -- Fusiliers, Grenadiers, Lancers, Cuirassiers, you name it.

For me. it is totally LAME!
They have Vaqueroes, fine. and when motorized, will be faster than anybody else.
 
Average Frenchman 16th - 18th centuries was about 5 foot 7 inches tall.

It was Frederick the Great's father that was the one with the mania for Giants and recruited all over Europe for minimum 6 foot tall men for his 'special' Prussian grenadier regiment. He supposedly had some near 7 feet tall, but his son disbanded the unit as soon as he became kng because it was an expensive toy more than a military unit.

In game terms, a Unique Unit with half the combat factors and twice the maintenance costs of regular infantry which also causes you to be derided as a complete Nutter by all of your neighbors . . .
And is it also the case of Soldaderas as being a 'wrong' Mexican UU? My believe is very firm since... I don't see Chasseurs a Pied unit yet. if Soldaderas ever appear this unit should be this type and not replacing REAL MEN units of Infantry lineage.
 
And you think Mexican Army is 'an army of Cowgirls' is alrite to you?
In truth they aint! Soldaderas are camp followers. should instead be skirmishers rather than Infantry replacements. Santa Ana NEVER use them as frontline units. he instead had the same Napoleonic Army with him. -- Fusiliers, Grenadiers, Lancers, Cuirassiers, you name it.

For me. it is totally LAME!
They have Vaqueroes, fine. and when motorized, will be faster than anybody else.
I never even mentioned the soldaderas in my comment, what are you talking about?
 
Nor did I, nor was my quoted post in regard to any Mexican unit of any Age or period. If you have an argument with the Soldaderos Unique Unit, please address it to people discussing that.
 
I never even mentioned the soldaderas in my comment, what are you talking about?
I'm talking that I disagree with Soldaderas will be Mexican replacements of standard infantry units AND proposed Californios instead. (And they are GOOD especially when fighting American invaders.) And since Californios (or Vaqueroes) are conveniently cavalrymen. AND you mention that if Colombia is to be here in Civ7 at some point (Expansions or DLC). It means Mexican UU will NOT be of Cavalry class. If I don't deduce that you agree with that foot cowgrils being standard Mexican infantryr in place of REAL fighting men. What else can I think of?

Having Soldaderas replacing everyone in Infantry line is WAAAY OFFF to me. Historically while they join maching armies, they are NOT active combatants. In Mexican War these armed camp followers existed, but did NOT replace any standard footsloggers. nor they added combatant counts at Alamo.
Get my points?
 
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1) We don’t actually know that there is only 1 infantry unit in the Modern era, do we?

2) As others have said, the unique units are not necessarily representative of the bulk of a civ’s armed forces. This isn’t Total War, and there is always some degree of abstraction to the units visualised. Real armies don’t have only ballista elephants, or berserkers, or donkey chariots either. I don’t think that anyone will reasonably infer that the Mexican revolutionary army was all-female based on a unit in a video game.

It always seems that any attempt to put even a single female unit in a historic strategy game receives a disproportionate amount of backlash against its historicity.
 
1) We don’t actually know that there is only 1 infantry unit in the Modern era, do we?

2) As others have said, the unique units are not necessarily representative of the bulk of a civ’s armed forces. This isn’t Total War, and there is always some degree of abstraction to the units visualised. Real armies don’t have only ballista elephants, or berserkers, or donkey chariots either. I don’t think that anyone will reasonably infer that the Mexican revolutionary army was all-female based on a unit in a video game.

It always seems that any attempt to put even a single female unit in a historic strategy game receives a disproportionate amount of backlash against its historicity.
1. So far. Infantry class is now streamlined. and this is what I LOVE alot. Civ6 Unit class systems are very silly. and so many times full of pseudo units as follows
1.1 Musketeers; Before 1700 AD There rarely was a homogeneous brigade consisting entirely of musketeers, they were mostly combined units. with any other hand to hand soldiers like Spanish Tercio (and copycats conveniently called Pike and Shotte. Sure musketeers were trained to shoot in successive rolling volleys so to maintain a steady flow or lead rains upon enemy combatants (as long as their ammo lasts), but they weren't really good at hand to hand combats (not many were specially trained that way, forgot THAT French elite guards, they were cavalrymen or at least mounted infantry but not common footsloggers.)
Very few examples exists though, though these were temporary phenomenon
- Battle of Nagashino. where Oda Nobunaga made use of homogeneous Ashigaru arquebusiers to the great effect against Takeda Knights. he did so however by raising a palisade walls, and posted all of his arquebusiers behind that walls, and enemy cavalry charge is not a problem at all. though Warring States Era Armies of Japanese Warlords did use Pike and Shotte as well.
- Battle of Sarhu. Joseon musketeers held their ground against Manchu mighty cavalry with no pikemen support. This happened because mis-organizations of Ming-Joseon allies, that Ming sent Pikemen while Joseon sent musketeers and intended to unite somewhere. Ming pikemen however were out of sync.
- Janissary. (not confirmed, though they were actually multidiscipline infantrymen that trained to use every weaponry available, they were also actually combined arms infantry and might using either spears or pikes (in the same fashion as Macedonian Pezhetairoi, since Janissary pikemen or spearmen did carry roundshields)
infographic-of-the-ottoman-empire-1299-1923-and-its-elite-infantry-the-janissaries-adobe-indes...jpg

- Russian Streltsy
1.2 Separate 'Rifle Infantry' and Machineguns. the two units were, at Civ scales. always organized as one. I'm saying that MGs are included as elemnts of modern Infantry (And even cavalry) from the very start, and even more so since 1915 AD onwards. there NEVER WAS a full regiment consisting of HMGs.
1.3 And same goes also to Antitank Infantry. there NEVER WAS, and NEVER WILL BE a homogeneous regiment of bazookamen or ATGMs.
OK Streamlining infantry class could render some units totally irrelevants (such as tanks!), but that's tactical problem that has to do with random seeds and not a simple 'Rock, Paper' Scissors'. Big scale TBS like CIV is fundamentally different to RTS.
2. Abotu unique units, some did indeed correctly replaces generic options.
- English Redcoats: These were indeed basic British Infantrymen for some 300 years, with weapons upgraded to match global standards at any given time. And sometimes were even leaders. Generally one of the best foot soldiers in the World of their times.
- Viking Longships: though this unit is 'shared' with anybody else around them. especially with North Europeans all share clinker ship building traditions.
- Arabian Mamelukes.
- Khmer Elephant Archers. This was based upon Angkor Wat bas reliefs. Elephants were primarly cavalry choices of Southeast Asia. and even so these were elite units, and only Noblemen can ride ones to battles (and conveniently, field commanders of all ranks). Before anyone in Southeast Asia. It didn't represent Khmers entire army though.
- Indonesian Djong (Later became Majpahiti Cetbang). though graphinally incorrects, these were their naval mights.
- Australian Diggers (Actual name is ANZAC Infantry).
- Greek Hoplites.
- Roman Legion.
- Japanese Samurai. No questions about it.
Others were not represented correctly, for various reasons
- Viking Berserkers; VERY FEW men within any viking warbans are indeed berserkers. There always be a better UU options, mine is Huskarls, also infantry but more numerous.
- French UUs. BOTH 'Musketeers' and 'Imperial Guards' represents a handful if French infantry forces, in fact these were elite guards, surely better than average joes. but does NOT represents the entirety of French Infantry Forces.
Better Alternatives: There were better alternatives to represents French Infatry being superior--Le Blanc. and this represents the entirety of Basic French Infanry forces of the Late Earlymodern and Industrial Era (under Civ7 rule, Age III)
If 'Fusilier' name is not taken as generic unit choices. it should be taken as French UU especially with French basic infantry are conveniently referred to as Fusiliers since 1700s onwards.
- Amercan Rough Riders (under Theodore Roosevelt). They were irregular cavalry, and just like Berserkers and French Imperial Guard, only ONE regiments existed.
Better Alternatives: Yellowlegs. This is a nickname of US Cavalry since trousers runners are yellow. US Cavalry was modelled after British Light Dragoons, which still even by the time of American Revolution - still performs mounted infantry action - dismount to fight on foot whenever ordered to, something no Dragoons or Carabiniers in Europe bother doing by then.). US Cavalry are alwys gunny, and in fact the first to use repeater firearms. (and 'the most modern', one that geared towareds future trends, and not the past traditions because they had no traditions of European Cavalry at all. No Lancers, No Cuirassiers ever raised by US Government, and no knight caste requirements because there's none in America.)
- Brazillian Minas Gerais. The WORST UU Ever, These were once the best Dreadnought Battleships built, though these were all imports from Great Britain. made with superior specifications than what Royal Navy's best ships did. Minas Geraise was unfortunately outclassed too soon by Superdreadnoughts of 1910s. Also Brazil's lack of sufficient industry and facilities to support Dreadnoughts prevented this Pride of Nations to join any wars. Even worse it was a site of mutinies.
This represented Latin American Dreadnought Races of the early 20th Century, quite a flash in the pan since no one in Latin America had a through understandings of Steam powered, Steel hull navy. Over reliance on Agricultural exports eventually ruined these navies considerably.
I can't really think of better Brazillian alternatives at all. the closest might be either Prachinhas, or LLL (Napoleonic era Light Infantry, trained in the same fashion as British 95th Rifles - Skirmishers capable of linear infantry tactics).
- Russian Cossacks. 'Cavalry' replacements is a pure fantasy. Russian Imperial Army organized Cossacks differently to anyone else. They were irregulars that worked side by side with generic cavalrymen including a simple Line Cavalry. and they NEVER replace generic choices AT ALL and in all classes. Even generic 'light cavalry' exists - Dragoons. and these were hardcore mounted infantry.
Better Alternatives:
A. Streltsy. Backbone of Tsardom of Muscovy military. Musketeers that also equipped with a bardiche (a kind of poleaxe), granting a good hand too hand factor. What they used against cavalry was Gulyay Gorod (Mobile Fortress), of all kind. the most advanced iterations could be conveniently imagined as being a 'transformer'.

B. Corps Volante: Russian dragoon that replaces cavalry, gains cavalry mobility but use Infantry attributes in combat.
 
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My headcanon with many Unique Units is that even though the unit has a certain name, it doesn't necessarily mean it's an entire section or regiment (or whatever) full of said unit. It could be a regular infantry supported by the namesake, so for Mexico it would be an infantry regiment supported by Soldaderas. I look at the UUs more like cultural or military pride rather than actual tactical units, so it helps with uniques.

That being said, having Bazookas as the main infantry force in GS because they don't need Oil was really weird, and I really hated Brazil's Minas Gerais being better than every other nation's battleship. It makes sense using it to show how navally powerful they were in South America, but seeing its stats be higher than a normal battleship when irl it was quickly outclassed took me out of it.
 
It's the kind of historical wackiness always happens in civ, tanks vs spreamen, Tercios right at the start of Exploration, Soldaderas right at the start of Modern.

I would just like to add that I don't see how the Mexican UU has to be relevant for Santa Ana and El Alamo (and one from the revolution in this case). Personally I'd rather see the historical wackiness go the other direction, in the sense of putting Mexico's design in the parts of our history we care about (independence, la reforma and the revolution) rather than the Mexican-American war, that very often feels like pandering to the US audience. It did happend, and I guess I'll have to suffer seeing Santa Ana in game.

So I'd rather have a revolution UU mix into the early modern, rather than an early modern unit related to the Mexican American war mix into the revolution.

1) We don’t actually know that there is only 1 infantry unit in the Modern era, do we?

2) As others have said, the unique units are not necessarily representative of the bulk of a civ’s armed forces. This isn’t Total War, and there is always some degree of abstraction to the units visualised. Real armies don’t have only ballista elephants, or berserkers, or donkey chariots either. I don’t think that anyone will reasonably infer that the Mexican revolutionary army was all-female based on a unit in a video game.

It always seems that any attempt to put even a single female unit in a historic strategy game receives a disproportionate amount of backlash against its historicity.

Yeah I have a feeling there will be more infantry lines. My gut feeling is that Soldaderas will have mix gendered graphics anyway, too many women during the revolution actually dressed as men, they added Amelio c'mon. If anything I think Soldaderas will be much less agregious than Tercios at the start of the age, because between civilian clothing and sombreros they will probably look like Mexican flavoured militia, which they were.

My headcanon with many Unique Units is that even though the unit has a certain name, it doesn't necessarily mean it's an entire section or regiment (or whatever) full of said unit. It could be a regular infantry supported by the namesake, so for Mexico it would be an infantry regiment supported by Soldaderas. I look at the UUs more like cultural or military pride rather than actual tactical units, so it helps with uniques.

Yeah for me Soldaderas are the middle ground representation of the forces of both Zapata and Villa, if they look the part and give me that Mexican revolution flavour, I'll be a happy man.

PD-Santa Ana delenda est, please replace him with ma' man Zaragoza.
 
Yeah I have a feeling there will be more infantry lines. My gut feeling is that Soldaderas will have mix gendered graphics anyway, too many women during the revolution actually dressed as men, they added Amelio c'mon. If anything I think Soldaderas will be much less agregious than Tercios at the start of the age, because between civilian clothing and sombreros they will probably look like Mexican flavoured militia, which they were.



PD-Santa Ana delenda est, please replace him with ma' man Zaragoza.
You never seems to forgive Santa Ana. Are you American Texan?
I make my stand here. Mexico of 1830s has more honorable army than those cowgirls of the 1860s. and yes. those Cowgirls here did join Santa Ana.
You can't shake him away from Mexico. Like it or not.

This 'Soldaderas' did exists in Texas Revolution as camp followers. and first mentioned in American Sources at the Battle of San Jacinto. The only battle that Texan won, but it won their wars because they captured Santa Ana there!

 
You never seems to forgive Santa Ana. Are you American Texan?
I make my stand here. Mexico of 1830s has more honorable army than those cowgirls of the 1860s. and yes. those Cowgirls here did join Santa Ana.
You can't shake him away from Mexico. Like it or not.

This 'Soldaderas' did exists in Texas Revolution as camp followers. and first mentioned in American Sources at the Battle of San Jacinto. The only battle that Texan won, but it won their wars because they captured Santa Ana there!

Santa Ana is not held in high esteem in modern Mexico. His on-again, off-again relationship with power caused quite a bit of chaos.
 
Santa Ana is not held in high esteem in modern Mexico. His on-again, off-again relationship with power caused quite a bit of chaos.
But his army. or any Mexican army before Juarez uprising was much much more honorable than those silly cowgirls.
they should be skirmishers. not the main line unit!

Santa Ana is bad. but his army (or anyone between him and Juarez) is Mexico at its best. A perfect copy of European Sophistications. Shiny Cuirassiers, Brave Lancers, and Tall cap Grenadiers.
 
You never seems to forgive Santa Ana. Are you American Texan?
I make my stand here. Mexico of 1830s has more honorable army than those cowgirls of the 1860s. and yes. those Cowgirls here did join Santa Ana.
You can't shake him away from Mexico. Like it or not.

This 'Soldaderas' did exists in Texas Revolution as camp followers. and first mentioned in American Sources at the Battle of San Jacinto. The only battle that Texan won, but it won their wars because they captured Santa Ana there!


Santa Ana is not held in high esteem in modern Mexico. His on-again, off-again relationship with power caused quite a bit of chaos.

Thanks Eagle, you put it perfectly. Santa Ana is a part of our history we really are not proud of, and in the context of a list of Revolucionarios I can't avoid feeling like he was added to keep Americans happy so they could replay the Alamo. To me It's equivalent to having someone like Victoriano Huerta in that list.

again, I'd rather see Madero, Zaragoza, Belisario Dominguez, Carranza or Obregon in that spot.
 
Yes, I think he is there as a bit of name recognition for Americans.
 
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