Civ4 - Game of Democracy - Announcement

[Ginger_Ale]

Correct. I very much agree with ravensfire (nice answers!) in his '5 ways Flex is better'. One of the strongest points is that, as DaveShack says, it is experienced. When you base it off something that works, not only do you know that it won't fail (or is very likely to), you know that you can add and modify it and it will still be a sturdy ruleset that will stand up to the challenge.

edit: Now I'm leaning towards changing my vote...we'll see.

 

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: I am the future, read your post at the top of this page (post 42).

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Did everyone forget about the Secretary of War election? I lost!

More importantly, please read the second and third paragraphs of my concession speech. If we are going to consider changing to the flex govenment, let's do it using our legal powers instead of resting on the laurels of moderator actions. It shouldn't be that tough to do. Plus it will allow us to get the game started.

Let's vote Option #1 while we offer amendments in the Citizens Forum. Then we can actually start playing the game.

People of our nation,

I would like to extend my congratulations to Chieftess for her 11th hour victory in this election. What remains to be seen is whether this poll will even be valid in the eyes of the people.

With that being said, I would like to encourage all citizens to support the Triumvirate ruleset in this poll. This is now our ratified law of the land and therefore, it should require legal, not forum, action to change this.

As an original supporter of the Flexible ruleset, I can state that this isn't a tough decision for me. The Triumvirate ruleset is up and ready to go, so we should work to make changes from within. There is nothing stopping us from gradually transitioning from one ruleset to the other via the amendment process.

I would like to thank all of my supporters for making this another close race. As I have said before, you are in good military hands with Chieftess. I now plan to spend my free time pursuing some of the legal aspects of our dilemma, based on our current ruleset. As far as I am concerned, the show shall go on as planned, regardless of this incident.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi

 

[Chieftess]

It still has 27 hours. Anything can happen...

 

[Black_Hole]

I still prefer the flexible and always will, the Triumvirate is way to complicated, plus this is what the people wanted. Everyone can argue that the ratifacation poll proves that the people wanted Triumvirate, but it doesn't, people voted that to get the game started abd because it was thought a majority wanted it.

I think we should start on Feb. 1 with new elections. 3-4 elections were bad, we don't have a president, and if we choose Flexible it needs to be polished and ratified.

Btw, it doesn't matter that the Triumvirate is already passed, we can just ratify the Flexible to take its place, I think...

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I still prefer the flexible and always will.........

Btw, it doesn't matter that the Triumvirate is already passed, we can just ratify the Flexible to take its place, I think...

You think? I never expected to see a lack of objectivity cloud your rational judgment before looking at all the facts, Black_Hole. I am very disappointed. If we allow the moderators to make our decision for us here, then we may as well forfeit to them all of our toilet paper as well.

We don't need this crutch, people. Rise up and vote to make your own decision in this matter under our current law, no matter which government you preferred!

 

[Blkbird]

Everyone can argue that the ratifacation poll proves that the people wanted Triumvirate, but it doesn't, people voted that to get the game started abd because it was thought a majority wanted it.

I, too, am very disappointed to read those kinds of words from someone who led a good campagn for the Public Defender position. When a legislative decision is made (like in this case), *why* it was made is no longer of significance. The only thing that matters is the fact that is *has* been made.

Since the ratification of our current CoL (which is Tri 6.2) is constitutionally binding for us, the CoL are already in effect. The only way we can switch to Flex without violating our Consititution is by making the switch a CoL amendment (where the whole CoL is being "amended"). That requires 60% of votes (CoL 10.A.I) and a set of proper procedures (CoL 10.B.I-V) - but I'm certain most of those who supports an immediate switch disagree with that.

What we are seeing here is that a lot people are willing to "bend" the Constitution. I admit they have strong reasons to do so, but personally I have a problem with that.

 

[Swissempire]

Without a trial alphawolf is still innocent. Also the Triumvirate worked and all of you were content, until the opening came for you to leap in and use Alphawolfs suspected cheating as a way to relaunch your polictical theory which has been incorporated into a government that you supported and were elected to! This oppurtunism is appalling! If Alphawolf did perpatate such acts, then he is wrong. But All of us put our ideas into the Tri! It is not Alpha's gov but OUR GOVERNMENT. WE had the final say in it, not only alphawolf. Ravenfire and Future, you should be ashamed, ashamed of the lack of morals you have showed through this. Why must we allow ourselve to be further injured by this ordeal! We must carry on, we must not be weakened. We cannot, cannot, canNOT allow ourselves to give up on this foundation, we must only strengthen it, and in time we must build upon it. You who support the trashing of the Tri would only seek to tear down all we have done. You would seek to give up after falling down, you would seek to crawl away to an easier fight. We must perservear in this troubled time. We cannot give up on months of work. We cannot throw elected officials out of their RIGHTFUL positions. We must not be struck down by the tide of deceit, but we must weather the storm and survive it. We must not spit on the wounded in this ordeal and then usurp them, but instead we must help them up, and with this act you help the whole demogame. We must not drop evrything we are doing, everything we have done because of accusations. We must continue, having learned our lesson from this, we must continue to be the Demogame we have come to love. I urge all of you not to give up, not to give in to barbarism and oppurtunism, but i urge you to stand strong and tall and not but barreled over by those who would seek to use this game for there own game. Whether through DL's or other ways we must not give up, we must continue on, we must, must vote to keep the triumvirate!

 

[Black_Hole]

I, too, am very disappointed to read those kinds of words from someone who led a good campagn for the Public Defender position. When a legislative decision is made (like in this case), *why* it was made is no longer of significance. The only thing that matters is the fact that is *has* been made.

Since the ratification of our current CoL (which is Tri 6.2) is constitutionally binding for us, the CoL are already in effect. The only way we can switch to Flex without violating our Consititution is by making the switch a CoL amendment (where the whole CoL is being "amended"). That requires 60% of votes (CoL 10.A.I) and a set of proper procedures (CoL 10.B.I-V) - but I'm certain most of those who supports an immediate switch disagree with that.

What we are seeing here is that a lot people are willing to "bend" the Constitution. I admit they have strong reasons to do so, but personally I have a problem with that.

You think? I never expected to see a lack of objectivity cloud your rational judgment before looking at all the facts, Black_Hole. I am very disappointed. If we allow the moderators to make our decision for us here, then we may as well forfeit to them all of our toilet paper as well.

We don't need this crutch, people. Rise up and vote to make your own decision in this matter under our current law, no matter which government you preferred!

this is what I meant, but wasn't very clear, we basically amend the entire current CoL to make it the Flexible government, I understand the current CoL is binding, but it can be changed, which should be done.

So if flexible wins, the Flexible government is touched up, we need to get 60% of voters to support it, then the Triumvirate is replaced with it, there is nothing illegal with this

I never meant to say this poll would switch the government, but if Flexible does win we should begin polishing the Flexible and get it ready for an official CoL vote

 

[Black_Hole]

Without a trial alphawolf is still innocent. Also the Triumvirate worked and all of you were content, until the opening came for you to leap in and use Alphawolfs suspected cheating as a way to relaunch your polictical theory which has been incorporated into a government that you supported and were elected to! This oppurtunism is appalling! If Alphawolf did perpatate such acts, then he is wrong. But All of us put our ideas into the Tri! It is not Alpha's gov but OUR GOVERNMENT. WE had the final say in it, not only alphawolf. Ravenfire and Future, you should be ashamed, ashamed of the lack of morals you have showed through this. Why must we allow ourselve to be further injured by this ordeal! We must carry on, we must not be weakened. We cannot, cannot, canNOT allow ourselves to give up on this foundation, we must only strengthen it, and in time we must build upon it. You who support the trashing of the Tri would only seek to tear down all we have done. You would seek to give up after falling down, you would seek to crawl away to an easier fight. We must perservear in this troubled time. We cannot give up on months of work. We cannot throw elected officials out of their RIGHTFUL positions. We must not be struck down by the tide of deceit, but we must weather the storm and survive it. We must not spit on the wounded in this ordeal and then usurp them, but instead we must help them up, and with this act you help the whole demogame. We must not drop evrything we are doing, everything we have done because of accusations. We must continue, having learned our lesson from this, we must continue to be the Demogame we have come to love. I urge all of you not to give up, not to give in to barbarism and oppurtunism, but i urge you to stand strong and tall and not but barreled over by those who would seek to use this game for there own game. Whether through DL's or other ways we must not give up, we must continue on, we must, must vote to keep the triumvirate!

If indeed 12 of the votes in polls came from the same person, then its not the government everyone intially wanted

 

[Blkbird]

I never meant to say this poll would switch the government, but if Flexible does win we should begin polishing the Flexible and get it ready for an official CoL vote

OK, but that can take quite some time, as our Code of Law is a little bit amendment-ressistant. Section 10.B specifies:

Steps to Amend the Code of Laws

I. A Citizen posts an idea about the amendment as a thread.

II. Amendment is debated in the thread.

III. After at least 48hours the proponent posts a proposed poll.

IV. Once 24 hours have passed with no significant comments to the thread poll, the issue goes to the Judiciary for review.

V. If and after Judicial Review passes, the ratification poll is posted by the Judiciary.

So, starting the game now with the current CoL and continues to debate about switching to Flex would be the only way to avoid an indefinite delay.

 

[Blkbird]

If indeed 12 of the votes in polls came from the same person, then its not the government everyone intially wanted

Emphasize on "initially" here. What everyone *initially* wanted doesn't matter, what matters is what everyone *finally* accepted. The ratification was the final acceptance, and that precedes everything before it.

In retrospect, the process by which the Tri got accepted as CoL violated common customes, in so far that it hasn't been the first choice as a draft. But the process hasn't violated the Constitution, because contrary to the common customes, our Consitution doesn't prohibits ratification of CoL whose draft has not been the first choice. How common customes (from which a "right of custome" can be deduced in most existing judiciary systems in the world, I know) should be weighted against the Consitution is a decision for the Judiciary Review Board. Personally I have to give the Constitution the priority. Because even if we accept the idea of "right of custome", it would be the lowest form of right among all rights, while the CoL is the second highest form of right and therefore should only be judged upon by the Consitution (and constitutinoally established institutions, if existing).

 

[Black_Hole]

OK, but that can take quite some time, as our Code of Law is a little bit amendment-ressistant. Section 10.B specifies:



So, starting the game now with the current CoL and continues to debate about switching to Flex would be the only way to avoid an indefinite delay.

I stated we should have the game start by Feb.1 ,which gives us plenty of time for the entire CoL amendment procedure

I also understand it doesn't violate the constitution, but that doesn't mean we can't change it

 

[Blkbird]

I stated we should have the game start by Feb.1 ,which gives us plenty of time for the entire CoL amendment procedure

First, I don't see why we should wait for 3 weeks; second, there is no way to estimate how long it takes until "there is no significant comment" coming in any more in the poll thread, as specified in CoL 10.B.IV.

 

[Black_Hole]

First, I don't see why we should wait for 3 weeks; second, there is no way to estimate how long it takes until "there is no significant comment" coming in any more in the poll thread, as specified in CoL 10.B.IV.

We should wait 3 weeks so we can have new elections, and elections would start around the 21st anyway, so thats 14 days away... it could take 14 days to polish, the flexible, and get the CoL amended... plus the more time the better it will come out

 

[Blkbird]

We should wait 3 weeks so we can have new elections, and elections would start around the 21st anyway

Why?

You keep saying "should", and I can't follow your reasoning because you don't provide any.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

We should wait 3 weeks so we can have new elections, and elections would start around the 21st anyway, so thats 14 days away... it could take 14 days to polish, the flexible, and get the CoL amended... plus the more time the better it will come out

Regardless of how you want to bring about the Flexible ruleset, I have to make one thing clear. If you want to change to a Flexible ruleset via amendment, then you must vote now to go on with Triumvirate ruleset. Because that is essentially what we would be doing. We would be going on with this ruleset until it is changed in our laws.

Now, if you want to take our citizenry out of the equation and let the moderators decide on the Flexible ruleset for us, only then should you vote for Flexible. I am pretty sure that this is how the moderators will be interpreting these results.

So, which is it, Black_Hole? Do you wish to circumvent our current law, or do you wish to switch your vote to the option that truly supports your stance?

 

[Blkbird]

Regardless of how you want to bring about the Flexible ruleset, I have to make one thing clear. If you want to change to a Flexible ruleset via amendment, then you must vote now to go on with Triumvirate ruleset. Because that is essentially what we would be doing. We would be going on with this ruleset until it is changed in our laws.

Now, if you want to take our citizenry out of the equation and let the moderators decide on the Flexible ruleset for us, only then should you vote for Flexible. I am pretty sure that this is how the moderators will be interpreting these results.

So, which is it, Black_Hole? Do you wish to circumvent our current law, or do you wish to switch your vote to the option that truly supports your stance?

Very clear words, DZ. This makes up my mind, I'm voting now.

 

[Black_Hole]

Why?

You keep saying "should", and I can't follow your reasoning because you don't provide any.

First off, this is if flexible wins this poll:
We need time to finish this poll, edit the flexible gov, and amend the CoL... By then there are only 5 or so days till elections would start, so why not just wait?
Plus we need new elections anyway, if we have new positions...

 

[Blkbird]

First off, this is if flexible wins this poll:

You're running in circles. You're arguing *for* the switch to Flex under the assumption that it would prevail in this poll. That's a major flaw of logic.