Civ4 Realism Mod (Extended Gameplay and tweaks)

[EridanMan]

Jaynus - I love this whole concept, and I might be able to provide coding/xml support once things lighten up here at work...

But I have a few more Ideas-

Terrain Improvement-
Superhighways
Prereq tech - Combustion + Plastics
Effects -
Unlimited Movement (ALA old railroads)
+2 Commerce
-1 Health
High Upkeep cost
Cost-
Must Build on top of RR, twice as expensive
Reason-
Many people forget this, but the original justification of the Modern US interstate highway system was military- While in the military, Eisenhower was charged with moving a few divisions across the country- this took him almost nine months on the 'organic' highways system that existed at the time- something he considered a travestry- thus he pushed the Eisenhower interstate system through... Superhighways are very expensive (to both build an maintain), but they highly boost nation's commerce and allow instantious travel of military units between all connected squares.

City Improvements-
Railroad Yard
Prereq tech - Industrialization + Railroad
Effects-
-1 Health
A city with a rail yard can choose to 'support' the production of another city with a rail yard, adding 50% of its production to the target city. (Perhap boosted to 75% once computers come around)
Reason-
Once rail came around- nations no longer had to complete entire projects in one city... case in point - the construction of liberty ships in WWII was actually done far inland, and the completed sections of the liberty ships were then shipped by rail to the coasts where they were assembled in as little as 42 hours, stem to stern. There should be something similar in Civ.

Passenger Terminal
PreReqs-
Plastics
City already has airport
Effects-
-1 Health
City commerce boosted 25%
high upkeep
Reason-
Airports have a tremendous effect on a nations commerce, this should be modeled.

Minor Wonder (1 Per Civ)-
Passenger Hub
Prereqs-
5 Passenger Terminals
Effect-
Boosts Commerce in Target City 100%
All airports boost commerce 50% (vs 25% without).

Ideally, passenger terminals should produce barely more commerce than their upkeep costs initially, but once a Hub is in place, the commerce Boost becomes far more substantial.

 

[maler23]

First of all, great work and ideas from every one. I'm starting to see what makes Civilization such a huge success and that is certainly the fans.

One thing that would be nice is the ability to build forts on top of resources without wiping out the improvements that are on there.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the fort concept was not my idea, but spawned from this "Point of Forts?" thread here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134339

Also, right now there doesn't appear to be a way to "turtle". Sure you can retreat to your cities and build up a stack but then your lands can be ransacked.

Maybe I'm still stuck in the Age of Empires RTS strategy mindset as it's not really realistic to literally build a wall around your country(i'll leave the Israel discussion for another forum

But it does seem like there should be a more effective way to put up fortifications at your borders. Pill Boxes, Guard Towers maybe? It would also be cool to have "hedgehogs" like WW2 to guard against sea landings and the like.

/two cents

cheers,

-J

 

[userqwerty]

Please allow for resources wheat and corn to be convertible into resource alcohol which in turn can fuel the icbm

 

[woodelf]

Forgot about the fort on top of resource idea that was thrown around somewhere else. If possible to code the stacking of improvements this would be a nice addition.

Grain alcohol would find a use somewhere.

 

[jaynus]

Hey guys!!! Thanks for a ton more good input

2 more observations.

Are 90 hammers too much for clearing a forest? It was a shock to me when I completed the Pyramids waaaay sooner than I thought.

And I like the fact that research/culture/whatever can be broken down further than in tens. Having 95% research was a nice surprise.

One last question: I noticed that the description of the techs are updated, but Sid's tips about the techs aren't. Is this hardcoded?

woodelf - I'll look into testing the hammers tonight, I havn't thought about it or changed it at all yet...O.o I will check it out. No clue about those tips either, I will check it out. I havn't payed attention to them yet. I'll let you know! Thanks for pointing it out.

Jaynus what do you think of a simulation of splitting empires ?

Lachlan - Have any ideas or suggestions for how it should work?

Have you thought about tweaking the number of cities before you get penalized? On the standard map your budget goes -1g at the 3rd city and -3g for the 4th. With tech so costly should this be adjusted so you can keep up?

woodelf - This issue I actually have thought about extensively. Im honestly not quite sure yet. I majorly modified inflation to compensate for the city penalties; but I still wanted to leave some complication to expansion, so trade and income are still a viable issue in such an early age (where money is hard to come by).

EridanMan - Phenominal ideas!!! I love the superhighway idea, its great. And the passanger terminals will definitely give something for people to work for in the later ages for money and commerce. Im going to implement these tonight most likely, they are easy changes and great! Thanks! Email me once things lighten up at work eh? jaynus@gmail.com

maler23 - Yah, I've had all these issues alot too. The one thing that bugs me the most, is the AI will take pillaging over attacking your units any day, so it makes it tough to get rid of the pillaging units when they avoid yours. That of course is an AI issue, and im trying to find a way to get rid of it (perhaps getting rid of pillage income or lower it). Im not quite sure yet. What do you think?
We all know being able to build 'a wall of units' on a border, or something of the sort is realistically tactically unlikely, the only time this occured was trench-warfare in ww1, and even then covert operations and flanking were a norm. But there must be some sort of way to more realistically create a 'battlefront' rather than just sprawling your units all over the place to chase after AI stuff, it seems rather stupid. Anyone got any suggestions?

userqwerty - I can't find any sort of technical accuracy on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_fuel
If my memory serves me correctly, I remmember the USSR used an alchoholic-mixture instead of kerosine at times in the cosmonaut missions because it was cheaper (and you didnt have to buy it from the saudi's), but I cant seem to find any reference of an icbm or any other type of nuclear weaponary using an alchohol-mixture propellant...

 

[woodelf]

Dammit! 2 games and twice I've been isolated on a fairly large island/continent. I don't want to go the panagea route, but I may have to for the next game to try out how the AI acts towards me.

BTW, made the first era transition at 880BC. No idea how this fairs historically or versus the real game, but figured I'd throw it out here.

 

[woodelf]

And about forests.... In the original game I think the 30/60 hammers are random, but in your mod it is now 45/90 hammers. If you didn't alter anything than there is a fudge factor flying around. Not a biggie if it wasn't intentional and the game is making the correction.

 

[jaynus]

That is definitely one hell of a fudge factor though..im going to look into it. I think with the increase in turns it takes to do improvements, its compensating the sheilds...booo...gotta figure out how to remove that.

 

[Simetrical]

Simetrical - Do you have aim? Im going to email you some stuff...aim would be easy to collaberate

Yes, I have AIM, but I'm already always idling on MSN (Simetrical, gmail.com) and IRC (Quakenet, generally nick Simetrical when I'm online and Sim|awayreason when I'm not), and I don't particularly want to use a third memory-hogging program. Maybe I should get Trillian or something . . .

 

[Krafweerk]

Some interesting things to keep in mind when making this mod:

Horses are infact faster than early tanks. The Char Bis I, Vickers, K4, and Churchill tanks attained a maximum of 25 mph on paved road. A horse can most definitly outpace that offroad, where the tank is slowed...and keep pace on road.

This also opens the door to the next thing, the fact that early tanks, and even later more advanced tanks have very serious problems making it over rough terrain and through forests...a movement penalty, or even the possibility (if it can be done) of getting "bogged down" and stuck for a random number of turns. Catapults could easily "bog down" in swamplands or flood plains, or on rough terrain like hills as well.

Id also like to suggest that maybe early armoured vehicles have a range like fighters, to simulate having to supply oil to units in the field. Something that didnt really become anything less than difficult until units could be airlifted in and out of combat, and the reliance on heavy armor waned. Putting a tank on a transport, sending it across a globe, landing it, driving it into combat, driving it to the next city, is going to start wearing out your supply lines. Because you have to fuel that transport, and PUT fuel on the transport, send it back across the ocean, put it on a truck, drive it out to the tank, reful the tank, drive back, rinse wash repeat. Its pretty straining on ones economy. Something thats never been modelled in a civ game before. War wariness sort of takes the place of that, but your combat units are just as effective 1000 miles away as they are on your own soil

Which brings me to my last pseudo-suggest...is it possible to make it so overseas resources actually have to be loaded onto a transport and physically transported back to your linked up cities and offloaded say...once every 10 turns or so, to keep being able to use that resource. Resources you trade with other countries would be the same way, youd have to go pick it up, bring back, before you can use it. The naval game in civ4 has always lacked. It be nice to try and figure out your enemies supply lanes and ambush them, or as a great reason to bring back privateers that dont show nationality. Pirating your enemies shipments of gold or food or whatever would be cool. So would sending out a wolfpack of subs to sink a uranium shipment.

Any how...I LOVE the mod...I hope you keep working on it and im eager to see the next installment....

 

[Markezuma]

But there must be some sort of way to more realistically create a 'battlefront' rather than just sprawling your units all over the place to chase after AI stuff, it seems rather stupid. Anyone got any suggestions?

This may be impossible to do without the SDK, but I've come up with a few ideas that may help the problem. One idea is to implement Zones of Control. That is, it takes enemy units their remaining move points to enter any square adjacent to any of your [combat] units. (If anybody's ever played the game Military Madness, you'll know what I mean).

Another idea is to reduce the benefit for defending units. I find that the pillaging AI frustrates me more than it should because it's much harder to attack them since they receive terrain bonuses when defending. I usually end up letting them destroy everything because it would be far too damaging for me to leave my city and go on the offensive. If it were me, I'd give attackers terrain bonuses as well (though this will also make taking cities much easier). Defenders still receive the fortify bonuses, but those make a lot more sense.

Just some ideas, and good work with your mod!

 

[Lachlan]

Jaynus it has a subject on to splitting empires on apolyton forum ...

Go officicial Civ 4 website in "Latest Forums" n°4

 

[DeadZoneMDx]

Markezuma, extension to that thought

How about a potential attrition factor
Whereas, being inside enemy borders (while at war) lowers the def. bonus from terrain, makes sense, since the enemy is going to know more about the terrain than you
If you are inside another nations borders with a treaty, then you keep the normal bonuses

Would this be a good way of getting around the pilliaging? (ie. you can take the fight to them)

 

[GroggyGrognard]

Here's something I've been jogging around in my head, though if what I state is impossible or has been hashed over before, feel free to let me know.

My head-scratcher as far as units go in Civ IV is the gunship. Frankly, they don't do very much at all in this game. They're too weak to really do much, fighting wise. I've built a few in several games, and it was rarely used, except to hit a resource or two.

In that improvement killing, I did have a thought. Would it be possible, however, to set the unit up to be something more like an Air Mobility unit? Perhaps enable the gunship to hold one unit of light troops (Infantry, Seals, Marines) so they can ferry them deep behind enemy lines to stir up a bit of trouble? I wouldn't change the stats of the gunship unit, otherwise - I think the troop carrying ability is more than enough.

 

[Simetrical]

Horses are infact faster than early tanks. The Char Bis I, Vickers, K4, and Churchill tanks attained a maximum of 25 mph on paved road. A horse can most definitly outpace that offroad, where the tank is slowed...and keep pace on road.

Not indefinitely, though. 25 MPH is cantering speed, and horses can't canter for hours on end. To get them to move all day, you'd probably have to alternate between a trot and a walk. Substantially faster than a human, sure, but not overwhelmingly so.

This also opens the door to the next thing, the fact that early tanks, and even later more advanced tanks have very serious problems making it over rough terrain and through forests...a movement penalty, or even the possibility (if it can be done) of getting "bogged down" and stuck for a random number of turns. Catapults could easily "bog down" in swamplands or flood plains, or on rough terrain like hills as well.

Excellent idea.

Id also like to suggest that maybe early armoured vehicles have a range like fighters, to simulate having to supply oil to units in the field. Something that didnt really become anything less than difficult until units could be airlifted in and out of combat, and the reliance on heavy armor waned. Putting a tank on a transport, sending it across a globe, landing it, driving it into combat, driving it to the next city, is going to start wearing out your supply lines.

That's true for any unit. All soldiers need supplies: food, water, ammunition, etc. But planes are a special case, because a) they can't carry supplies with them for more than a handful of hours of flight, and b) if they keep moving, they're faster than any supply mechanism you can devise (so you can't generally have another plane set out after the first one leaves to refuel it, since it wouldn't be able to catch up without having to be refueled itself). Units of tanks, by contrast, could be accompanied by supply trucks keeping pace with them, as could soldiers and the like.

You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).

Which brings me to my last pseudo-suggest...is it possible to make it so overseas resources actually have to be loaded onto a transport and physically transported back to your linked up cities and offloaded say...once every 10 turns or so, to keep being able to use that resource. Resources you trade with other countries would be the same way, youd have to go pick it up, bring back, before you can use it.

Ugh, micromanagement.

The naval game in civ4 has always lacked. It be nice to try and figure out your enemies supply lanes and ambush them, or as a great reason to bring back privateers that dont show nationality. Pirating your enemies shipments of gold or food or whatever would be cool. So would sending out a wolfpack of subs to sink a uranium shipment.

There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

 

[Krafweerk]

Excellent idea.

Thank you

You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).

Maybe a "distance from capital" or "distance from supplies" (friendly border) cost in gold? Making foriegn wars more costly than fighting on your own soil. It would achieve the same thing, without as much editing, and without drastically changing the way the game plays?

On small maps it would never be THAT bad...but on huge, or gigantic maps, you better have a stellar economy to go all the way around the world to fight.

There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

Hrmm...if there was a way to "automate" the trade ships. All you would have to do is hit "A" like you do for workers, theyd choose the fastest route to any resources that need to be picked up, and returned.

Or if trade routes were picked like they are now, by the computer, but a visual representation of that trade route (a coloured road? maybe like red for resources, yellow for gold, something like that) then if an enemy unit just put himself on the trade route, it would cancel that trade as long as he's there.

I dont know if guarding traderoutes would be to much micromanagement or not

 

[Bollox]

Hi

I love what this mod does, I'm gonna wait til you get it all the way done beofre I install it. awesome work.

I'm very curious what other resources you are planning to give us?

Tobacco- +1 to happiness -2 health or something like that.

Canibus (I mean it is the only mind altering thing that does not have to be man made)

+2 to happines -3 economy because noone will want to work


maybe Ill think of somethign useful but now that I'm trying to think about this I am drawing a blank.

 

[evirus]

Hi

I love what this mod does, I'm gonna wait til you get it all the way done beofre I install it. awesome work.

I'm very curious what other resources you are planning to give us?

Tobacco- +1 to happiness -2 health or something like that.

Canibus (I mean it is the only mind altering thing that does not have to be man made)

+2 to happines -3 economy because noone will want to work


maybe Ill think of somethign useful but now that I'm trying to think about this I am drawing a blank.

but wouldnt the economy increase the economy because people are out their shuveling huge amounts of money around to pay for the hard to get stuff? or is that......... how about if you introduce drugs as a resource have a few more legal civics that deal with drug legalization...

i could care less about drugs but my head is spinning with vague ideas

 

[evirus]

EDIT: oh shoot, double post, vary sorry, didnt think about it when i hit the quote butten

Not indefinitely, though. 25 MPH is cantering speed, and horses can't canter for hours on end. To get them to move all day, you'd probably have to alternate between a trot and a walk. Substantially faster than a human, sure, but not overwhelmingly so.
Excellent idea.
That's true for any unit. All soldiers need supplies: food, water, ammunition, etc. But planes are a special case, because a) they can't carry supplies with them for more than a handful of hours of flight, and b) if they keep moving, they're faster than any supply mechanism you can devise (so you can't generally have another plane set out after the first one leaves to refuel it, since it wouldn't be able to catch up without having to be refueled itself). Units of tanks, by contrast, could be accompanied by supply trucks keeping pace with them, as could soldiers and the like.

You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).
Ugh, micromanagement.
There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

on the idea of blockades, supply shippments for resources and the like.

im reminded of the game galactic civilization(think civ in space) trade routes to other planets would be established by a large freighter, then after that small ships will go back and forth from planet to planet, dropping off money when it gets there. what if, after the off shore rig is built a supply ship is created, you send it to one of your cities and it generates a back and forth like thing that i just described, the amount of time between shipments would equal the smount of turns that shipment gives you for lets say oil costs. the enemy could capture or destroy the shipment(capturing gives the person the resource for the amount of turns the shipment is worth but they have to cart it back to their city) but of course there should be treaties that say basicly that "i wont attack shipments" (these treaties must be canceled independently of declaring war, and the other civs frown open both canceling and attacking(more so) )


also, prehaps the same can be done on land, after a tech is researched(maybe relating to wheel or horse back riding, something like that) where you can build a shipment unit, select what to ship(rare resources like iron, or fur, or just food/hammers) and it would take a certain amount of resources from the starting city(maybe set by the player) and ship them to the recieveing city, the amounts are multiplied to account for shipping times and are also capturable


what do you think?

 

[Bollox]

tar - early stage for rubber, I think. Must have tar to make a rubber plant or something.. I'm kicking around idea's please if anyone wants to chime in feel free.. my friends =)



I want new resources because a fun part for me is seeing which resources are where and race my civ to claim it =)

the Canibus thing twas a joke.. i guess it would raise the economy from the fact that more people need food cause they have the munchies!