Civ7 now includes Denuvo

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Fair.

My issue with denuvo is you give them unrestricted kernel level access to your entire PC, and you give them permission to disable or uninstall any software it deems, not just the software you installed Denuvo with.

So per example, if I would have that "Denuvo-Civ 7" and ARA installed on my pc, they are able to uninstall the program of their rival (here ARA), so I have payed to use both programs ? And additionally they can spy out my complete pc and wipe out every program, so only their own program is surviving?
 
I think there’s a lot of over the top hyperbole in this thread (hijacking your computer to delete competitor games???). The Denuvo we're getting doesn't even have kernel-level access.

I get a lot of people don’t like it, but it’s not something unique to 2K. It’s an industry standard to prevent piracy.

It won’t stop me from buying it. I’ve never had problems with games that had it. I suspect most people in general haven’t.
 
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So per example, if I would have that "Denuvo-Civ 7" and ARA installed on my pc, they are able to uninstall the program of their rival (here ARA), so I have payed to use both programs ? And additionally they can spy out my complete pc and wipe out every program, so only their own program is surviving?
They would run into serious legal issues if they did that.
 
For those interested in what Denuvo entails there is this topic which is interesting
 
I just did a few minutes of research but would be good to clarify...
Anti tamper and anti cheat are different products
Anti cheat clearly has kernel access; Anti tamper does not? (All anti cheat has kernel access)

A lot of the issues mentioned around performance etc are from several years ago... that is a long time in tech. Is it still true?
 
I just did a few minutes of research but would be good to clarify...
Anti tamper and anti cheat are different products
Anti cheat clearly has kernel access; Anti tamper does not? (All anti cheat has kernel access)

A lot of the issues mentioned around performance etc are from several years ago... that is a long time in tech. Is it still true?
I read through some of the examples. It seems a lot of the performance impact has to do with how specifically the devs implemented the solution
 
If anyone wants a reminder on what consequences Kernel-level access can have, even when non-malevolent... remember Crowd Strike from last month? That was kernel-level too, and the fact it was kernel-level is why it was so devastating when it went wrong.

Denuvo is actively harmful to the consumer in ways that no other DRM I know about is. It slows down your computer. It reduces SSD's lifetimes. It creates a huge security vulnerability. It's essentially voluntarily installing spyware on your computer and then handing the keys to someone else. Not only do I have to trust that their best-interests align with my best-interest, I also have to trust that they won't accidentally do something wrong, and don't get hacked by a 3rd party that pushes a malicious patch out, and don't damage my computer/gaming experience even when doing everything "correctly". Having that much trust is pretty naïve IMO.

And the worse thing is, it doesn't prevent people hacking the game. All major AAA released get hacked pretty quickly after release, Denuvo or not. Denuvo might make life slightly harder for the pirate downloading it, but someone will post a step-by-step guide on reddit immediately after it's cracked anyway. In fact, considering how expensive Denuvo is for the studio, how little it reduces piracy, and how many people hate it, it barely improves their bottom line. Doesn't take much to drive it negative even. Boycotts of this spyware *work*.

If it's there more as anti-cheating than anti-piracy then make it optional and lock online MP behind Denuvo, but not the SP game. Is cheating in Civ that big a deal in the first place?
This is Denuvo anti tamper not anti cheat

It doesn’t seem to have kernel access
 
I think there’s a lot of over the top hyperbole in this thread (hijacking your computer to delete competitor games???)

I get a lot of people don’t like it, but it’s not something unique to 2K. It’s an industry standard to prevent piracy.

It won’t stop me from buying it. I’ve never had problems with games that had it. I suspect most people in general haven’t.
As I've said a couple of times now, it is the licence I have issue with and do not accept. Other people have other reasons, but the Denuvo licence is why I refuse to buy any game with it.
 
Fairly long post incoming. TL;DR - We are getting "Denuvo Anti-Tamper" with Civ 7, which does NOT get installed at the kernel level. It's just something that is integrated with the exe to obfuscate piracy and cracking attempts.

I get that Denuvo can be an emotional topic for some people and it's a deal breaker for them. It's a hot-button topic (go see how many games get review bombed on Steam for it) but the waters are muddied by a lot of exaggeration and misinformation. In my opinion that's an overreaction. Maybe it would be helpful to give a different perspective. I hope this point of view can assuage some concerns.

1. What is Denuvo?
Denuvo Anti-Tamper is an anti-piracy digital rights management (DRM) tool. It's been around for about a decade. It is used chiefly to prevent piracy. The "Anti-Cheat" version is used to monitor for stuff like aimbots in multiplayer games--that is what gets kernel access. Otherwise, Denuvo is used to prevent piracy, and it does a pretty good job at it. Most games do eventually get cracked, but Denuvo significantly delays successful cracking in most cases and helps preserve sales.

Civ 6 had a massive piracy problem, so I am not at all surprised to see Denuvo implemented for Civ 7.

2. How common is Denuvo?
Denuvo Anti-Tamper is very common, because it works well to prevent piracy. If you have been playing games from major publishers like Capcom, EA, Square Enix, and 2K, chances are you have been playing games with Denuvo already.

Some recent and upcoming AAA games with Denuvo include Black Myth Wukong, Final Fantasy XVI, Dragon's Dogma 2, Mortal Kombat I, etc. It's not just limited to AAA games either. Indie or indie-adjacent games like Tavern Keeper also use it.

3. Are we getting Denuvo at the kernel level in Civ 7?
NO.
The OP posted a screenshot from Irdeto's website acknowledging kernal access (Denuvo's developer). He's right, and Denuvo makes no attempt to hide this, but what the OP did not clarify by showing the rest of the page is that this is for Denuvo Anti-Cheat, not Anti-Tamper. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is what is implemented in Civ 7.


Read for yourself about how it's used and why. It's really not that scary, but it's moot since we're not getting it.

4. What's the kernel controversy with Denuvo? (Moot for Civ 7 anyway)
The "Anti-Cheat" product uses kernel level access for a variety of reasons, all of which are explained at the link above. People assume that means they're opening themselves up to malicious access and other scary terms, but there's a lot of misinformation and overexaggeration. Kernel access can be the safest way to implement anti-cheat actually--otherwise the program could stream from the web which if compromised could be a significant vector of attack for maliicous actors.

To put it another way, intent and implementation matter. Your mouse driver has kernel level access, but no one would call your mouse a rootkit. Anyway, this is irrelevant because we're not getting Denuvo Anti-Cheat.

By the way, I will point out that kernel level access is not required to do damage. There is a possibility for every single program you install to hurt your PC. There are games without Denuvo that have erased peoples' PCs.

5. How is Denuvo Anti-Tamper (Civ 7's version) installed?
It's not "installed" on your computer. It lives as part of the Civ 7 executable file. There is no known privacy or access risk with this.

6. Is there other controversy with Denuvo?
Some say both versions (Anti-Tamper and Anti-Cheat) impact performance. I've never noticed this, but it could be a concern. It's game-specific, and more associated with Anti-Cheat (which again, we are not getting).
 
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My main problem with DRM like Denuvo in the past has been performance impact. As long as that's not an issue I'll live with it.
I'm hopeful that the performance won't be impacted (and Civ 7 is a turn-based game anyway). At any rate, it is probable that it will be removed within the first year of the game's release. Publishers know that the immediate release period of a game is when piracy can most saliently impact sales, and after a certain point, the financials of paying for Denuvo don't make sense so they cut it.
 
As I've said a couple of times now, it is the licence I have issue with and do not accept. Other people have other reasons, but the Denuvo licence is why I refuse to buy any game with it.
This very post is actually the first time you've used the word 'license/licence' in this thread... The specific thing you said was about kernel access, which was not correct.

Also, I'm not sure what you're saying about the license issue here, because there is no Denuvo Anti-Tamper license for you to accept. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is not installed on your computer and is not end-user software. It's piracy obfuscation integrated with the game's code, not a program.

It's like anything else the game uses. Civ 6 licenses the Havok physics engine, but there's no license agreement for you to accept because it's not software getting installed to you.
 
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That makes me somewhat less anxious. I remember "reading" up on kernel level stuff back when they launched Valorant and all the rage was about it's anti-cheat. Even as a fairly adept PC-nerd, I'm no software engineer, so I have very minimal knowledge about such matters. What I read back then was to not touch programs with kernel level access, cause even if Riot didn't want to do harm, a third party could through their patches. But then as you say, if my mouse driver has kernel access, what stops a third party to somehow fudge with a patch from steelseries' driver if they somehow get access? Bah, wish I had a government body to know all this horsehockey and publish a recommended do's and don'ts list.
 
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