Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[pokiehl]

I'm tempted to trust you on this, because it sounds reasonable and I have no reason to think your shilling for Denuvo or the like. But, as you said, there's a lot of misinformation on this, and misinformation can flow both ways. Can anyone source / confirm this? Software does after all, sometimes, come with 3rd party EULA. I know that asking for confirmation of the non-existence of something is odd, but hopefully you know what I mean.

It is indeed challenging to prove a negative, but I am fairly sure I'm correct...

This is the EULA for Square-Enix's "Visions of Mana", which was literally released yesterday and has Denuvo Anti-Tamper:

EULA

store.steampowered.com

There is no mention of Denuvo or Irdeto in the EULA.

I also checked out Capcom's "Dragon's Dogma 2," a game I own that was released earlier this year and has Denuvo. The EULA on the Steam page doesn't have Denuvo mentioned, and I even uninstalled and reinstalled to see the EULA "live" and did not see Irdeto or Denuvo either.

At some point before release, Civ 7's EULA will be posted on Steam. That will be confirmatory.

 

[Gorbles]

As I've said a couple of times now, it is the licence I have issue with and do not accept. Other people have other reasons, but the Denuvo licence is why I refuse to buy any game with it.

No, this was your stated issue:

My issue with denuvo is you give them unrestricted kernel level access to your entire PC, and you give them permission to disable or uninstall any software it deems, not just the software you installed Denuvo with.

 

[Uberfrog]

I think we need some clarity on this from Firaxis. Associating the game with the toxic Denuvo brand… 2K really doesn’t seem capable of learning anything.

This is likely to lead to a boycott unless they remove it. Hopefully they will remove it as Sega did with Humankind.

 

[Dale]

This very post is actually the first time you've used the word 'license/licence' in this thread... The specific thing you said was about kernel access, which was not correct.

Also, I'm not sure what you're saying about the license issue here, because there is no Denuvo Anti-Tamper license for you to accept. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is not installed on your computer and is not end-user software. It's piracy obfuscation integrated with the game's code, not a program.

There are plenty of games that have Denuvo terms in their EULAs.

No, this was your stated issue:

"Give them permission" is agreeing to a licence.

End of the day, I won't be buying civ7 now due to denuvo being used.

 

[Gorbles]

"Give them permission" is agreeing to a licence.

I think we can both agree that wordsmithing something isn't exactly the best choice when Denuvo's products are themselves defended by corporate semantics. Just as Valve is with Steam, Microsoft is with Windows, etc.

I respect your choice not to buy, but clearing the air and providing precise, inarguable clarification on what is actually shipping with Civilisation is also important.

 

[Dale]

But are those games with anti-tamper or anti-cheat? If you know of some that only have anti-tamper and have Denuvo in their EULA (or require a separate EULA with Denuvo to play), then I'd like to see them.

Humankind was one. Try googling Denuvo antitamper EULA.

 

[Quintillus]

But are those games with anti-tamper or anti-cheat? If you know of some that only have anti-tamper and have Denuvo in their EULA (or require a separate EULA with Denuvo to play), then I'd like to see them.

I found one fairly quickly - Persona 3. View the EULA, search for Denuvo, and it specifically says Denuvo Anti-Tamper.

Definitely not good news. I have yet to buy a game with Denuvo. In part because most of the games I've wanted to buy haven't had it, but there is one - Anno 1800 - that I've been holding off on for five years, waiting until it drops Denuvo and its Ubisoft Store requirement. Looks like a fantastic game, but there are plenty of other fantastic games out there, no need to jump through hoops for any particular game.

I think this more than cancels out the good news of "no 2K launcher in Civ VII".

I'll also note that this is the first time I've heard of the difference between the "Anti-Tamper" and "Anti-Cheat" variants of Denuvo... usually it's just mentioned as "Denuvo".

 

[pokiehl]

Which isn't great IMO, specially that they don't guarantee full uninstallation.

I think some of your questions can be answered by Irdeto themselves: https://irdeto.com/denuvo/anti-tamper

Does Denuvo Anti-Tamper leave any files on my computer after I uninstall a game?
Depending on the game, one Denuvo-related file may be left on your computer after you uninstall the game. However, this file is inert and you can either manually delete it or leave it on your system without it affecting your PC in any way.

Anti-Tamper is wrapped in the .exe, and then creates a unique authentication token that is in part based on the user's hardware. There are many 3rd party software examples used by games that create a physical file presence on your PC, so I don't think this is surprising or concerning. Anti-Tamper doesn't require you to be online, doesn't make your PC "phone home," etc.

Anti-Cheat is a separate software EXE and doesn't hide itself.

There's some unknowns here, right? It seems like the games with Denuvo in their EULA are either older (pre-Anti Cheat from 2019) or all SEGA games. It's unlikely that huge publishers like Capcom and Square-Enix are making mistakes or lying to millions of players. Can anyone find a single non-SEGA example of a post-2019 Denuvo Anti-Tamper EULA agreement?

And at any rate, I think it's important to reiterate that there is no kernel access granted, which is the primary source of fear-mongering with Denuvo.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Oof. Yeah, that's legitimately the last drop. Everything else up until this point was fine.

 

[bv98132454]

What amazes me about this is how Firaxis has not learned from the reaction to this sort of software in other games. An announcement of this sort should include no less than a significant writeup/post solely on this issue and a video from the head of the project explaining it. Some will still be upset, but creating clarity would help a great deal.

 

[pokiehl]

Anti-cheat is a red hearing here, none of the EULAs I posted had Denuvo anti-cheat. (Quintilus's is slightly more ambiguous, it mentions both anti-cheat and anti-tamper, but then specifies anti-tamper in the sub clauses). Their own words say they install something on your computer, and you're not allowed to remove it. Not just that it's not automatically removed it but it puts you in breach of contract if you do remove it.

You're right about kernel-access, but this is something else. Calling it fear-mongering is not helpful. You can read the relevant causes in the EULA yourself and see that cause for concern is legitimate.

Sorry, I think there's some clarity needed.

I made a mistake calling Denuvo DRM. Denuvo is NOT DRM and hasn't ever called itself that. Denuvo protects the DRM. The actual DRM is the storefront (Steam).

So let's look at your Farcry exampe:

3.1 THE PRODUCT IS PROTECTED BY DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT SOFTWARE (“DRM SOFTWARE”) AND DENUVO ANTI-TAMPER PROTECTION TECHNOLOGY (“ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY”). YOU HEREBY AGREE, ACKNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT TO THE FOLLOWING REGARDING THE DRM SOFTWARE: (I) THE INSTALLATION OF THE PRODUCT WILL CAUSE THE DRM SOFTWARE TO BE INSTALLED ON YOUR COMPUTER; (II) THE DRM SOFTWARE MAY LIMIT THE NUMBER OF INSTALLATIONS OF THE PRODUCT; (III) THE DRM SOFTWARE MAY INSTALL ON YOUR COMPUTER ADDITIONAL COMPONENTS REQUIRED FOR COPY PROTECTION; (IV) DURING THE INSTALLATION AND/OR THE FIRST LAUNCH OF THE PRODUCT, AN ONLINE CONNECTION MAY BE REQUIRED TO UNLOCK THE PRODUCT THROUGH THE DRM SOFTWARE AND (V) CERTAIN FILES OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY MAY REMAIN EVEN AFTER THE PRODUCT IS UNINSTALLED FROM YOUR COMPUTER. IN NO EVENT SHALL UBISOFT BE LIABLE IN CONNECTION WITH THE COMPONENTS THAT MAY BE INSTALLED ON YOUR COMPUTER BY ANY DRM SOFTWARE OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, PLEASE VISIT THE WEBSITE OF THE DRM SOFTWARE OR OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY.

All of the bold (the scariest language) is related to Steam, or Origin, or Epic, or whatever other platform you play the game. The other language that relates to Denuvo is the installed file, which I addressed above, and then boilerplate "Cover-Your-***" language.

 

[Dale]

Others have said that Humankind was going to have Denuvo but did not ship with it, so it isn't an example. Telling someone else to google for evidence of your own statements is not exactly productive to good conversation IMO. We can do better than "Just do your own research, bro"

The last OpenDev DID ship with denuvo, and they backed down due to backlash.

As for do your own research, it's my opinion one should make up their own mind rather than just take the word of me or others.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

What amazes me about this is how Firaxis has not learned from the reaction to this sort of software in other games. An announcement of this sort should include no less than a significant writeup/post solely on this issue and a video from the head of the project explaining it. Some will still be upset, but creating clarity would help a great deal.

What probably sucks the most about this, is that this was probably a Take-Two mandate, and that Firaxis had to implement this against their own will. This is a friendly reminder that AAA corporations cannot ever be trusted, and anti-piracy software inherently represent a fundamental aspect of their evil

 

[AntSou]

If it's not kernel access I probably don't care. I'm not pre-ordering or buying on the first day anyway, so if it causes issues to players I'll know in advance.

I have had issues with kernel access anti-cheats before, they would shut off msi afterburner and my fans along with it. Weird crashes as well along with being kicked from games.

 

[canadamufc]

Firaxis should really clarify more on this for the people who don’t really understand anything about Denuvo like me.

 

[Quintillus]

With some time to reflect on it... I'm reminded of the DRM in Civ III, which was not as controversial as Denuvo, but which did wind up causing issues. You can read about it on this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-3-windows-update-kb3086255-safedisc.552308/ But the most important part from a "general consumer" standpoint is:

Beginning with Windows 10, the secdrv service can not be run or installed on a system so any older games that use these programs will no longer work. Additionally, with the September 2015 Windows Security Update KB3086255, the service has also been disabled on older Windows OSs (Vista, 7, 8, 8.1), causing these games to no longer run on these systems either.

Now, obviously, people are still playing Civ III today, so what gives? Firaxis released Civ III on Steam and GOG, without the SecuROM DRM, or any other form of DRM (unless you consider Steam itself to be DRM, which at least the way it is implemented in Civ III, where the game runs just fine without Steam running, I do not). Thus, anyone playing Civ III today is playing one of:

- Steam Civ III
- GOG Civ III
- The original CDs on Vista or earlier, or on 7/8/8.1 without the KB3086255 patch
- One of the rare disc-based versions that did not include SecuROM, such as the Civilization Chronicles disc

Civ III is only $5-$6 on Steam/GOG, and was back then too, so it wasn't a huge deal to buy a DRM-free copy(some mod incompatibilities with the Steam version are due to a separate bug with the Steam multiplayer implementation). But it's still an inconvenience that wouldn't have happened without SecuROM; if the discs had been DRM-free, in all likelihood you could still play with them on Windows 11.

You may think, well, Denuvo is fairly established, this is unlikely to happen with it. The same thing could have been said of SecuROM in 2001, though. By 2015, it was no longer supported. And while yes, 14 years is a long time, Civilization games tend to stand the test of time.

Thus I think long-term, one of the concerns this raises is, will Denuvo be removed eventually? Firaxis's track record is not bad here; Civ4 is also available on GOG nowadays. But as others have mentioned, the problem is probably 2K here. They see an opportunity to maximize $70-$130 first-week sales, which does kind of make sense. For those of us with a twenty-year horizon, though, it's concerning.

 

[pokiehl]

I don't think that's relevant, or correct. Denuvo doesn't hold the Digital Rights (DR), but it is software that helps the holders of said DR managing it. Hence, it's DRM. Quoting wikipedia: "Denuvo Anti-Tamper is an anti-tamper and digital rights management (DRM) system developed by the Austrian company Denuvo Software Solutions GmbH." Steam is also DRM. But one that is far less intrusive, I already have installed and decades of familiarity with, and doesn't legally prevent me from deleting whatever files I want.

The distinction is relevant and correct. That's why the DRM and Anti-Tamper are called out as two specific entities. You're citing Wikipedia. Why don't you just go to Irdento's website that I linked where they clarify it for you?

What is the difference between DRM and Anti-Tamper?
A Digital Rights Management (DRM) system binds the game to a legitimate user account and allows the game to be played whenever and wherever the consumer wants to download and execute the game. Anti-Tamper stops the reverse engineering and debugging of the DRM solution, but it has no effect or limitation on the legitimate consumer. Anti-Tamper is completely transparent to legitimate game buyers and does not in any way impose activation limits, install drivers, or require a gamer to be “always on.”

 

[Dale]

The distinction is relevant and correct. That's why the DRM and Anti-Tamper are called out as two specific entities. You're citing Wikipedia. Why don't you just go to Irdento's website that I linked where they clarify it for you?

Because Irdento has a vested interest to prove a point?

 

[Olle Wernersson]

This is a friendly reminder that AAA corporations cannot ever be trusted, and anti-piracy software inherently represent a fundamental aspect of their evil

Could you clarify why using anti-piracy software is fundamentally considered an evil act?

 

[Dale]

Please note that I updated post 5 in the thread to indicate I confused anti cheat with anti tamper. At time of writing civ7 lists Denuvo anti tamper.