Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[user330977]

Why does he have to care about other people, when all he's doing is explaining why he'll purchase the game anyway?

Because people's actions have an effect on others.

For example:
He: "But in very short: Best anti-piracy tool out there."
You: "Games are cracked often within days."
He: "You are gravely mistaken in your facts again. [...] Not a single 2024 denuvo game has ever been cracked. Only handful of 2023 denuvo games have been cracked."
You: "Please don't post inflammatory remakes like "you are gravely mistaken in your facts" and the refuse to elaborate."

Saying someone is "gravely mistaken in their facts" is disrespectful, especially when that same person point blank refuses to provide any facts to back up their weak argument. Not only that, I was accused of everyone's favourite fallback when losing an argument - building a strawman. Bore off.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Don't be ridiculous.

The only point of making money is to have money to spend on things. Money that just sits in your bank account is useless - whether 'you' are a person or a company. If a company makes a profit, that profit will be spent on expanding or improving the company in one way or another. And for a game company, hiring more developers is one of the most obvious ways to do so.

Lowering prices is less likely, but even that cannot be ruled out - lower prices can give you an advantage over your competition, allowing you to gain a better position even though your own profits are also lowered. The primary reason it's less likely to actually happen is because competition with other game developers isn't actually a big deal, as most people just buy all the games that catch their attention, rather than picking between them.

No.

Corporate financial optimization is its own field of specialization, but dividends to shareholders and share buybacks are a big part of the equation. Hiring more developers is way down the list of expected return on investment, behind things like buying other franchises to go into the 2k portfolio. Return on investment is maximized by hiring as few developers as you can get away with, not hiring more because you have cash burning a hole in your pocket.

There is a nuanced argument to be made here regarding a more profitable Civ 7 attracting more investment in DLCs and a future Civ 8, but this is not the thread for that argument, because Denovu doesn't play into the ultimate profitability of Civ in any meaningful way. The decision to include Denovu is based on the cost of Denovu versus the expected additional sales arising from less piracy. That's a rounding error on the margin compared to the big question of whether Civ 7's gameplay is a hit or a flop.

Most people don't steal. Most gamers don't pirate. Steam makes acquiring the game very simple for a modest cash outlay. If the game gets good reviews, Steam is where most people will go to get their copy. The piracy market consists mostly of people who won't pay for games at any price or who can't afford to pay full price or who are just general a**hats and good luck changing their behaviour by slapping DRM coding into your software. You might limit the number of pirated games, but drawing a line from that to higher sales is specious.

Also, including Denovu isn't going to keep many people from buying the game. Just me, and that's cool. I wasn't sure I was going to buy it anyway (although in the absence of Denovu, I would have been leaning towards buying it, because the Civ-switching appeals to me and I'm curious to see what they do with it).

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This is a discussion forum, not a debate site. Please be kind to one another despite the heat of the issue.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I don't want to break any rules but I found it really funny that one guy said "Yes there's upsides of Denuvo for me personally, but they are secret upsides which I shall not talk about"
I died laughing

 

[TreVor_ish]

Just because it's not a public knowledge whether or not game with Denuvo was cracked doesn't mean that it wasn't. And why would anyone want to put itself in risk of being sued for it. Sure they can be pirated. The bigger the traction and game more popular, more people are willing to chance it. But I might as well be full of it. However, this particular DRM already showed many times, how grossly oversteps it's boundaries, and that's the real reason people don't like it.
Nonetheless, it's everyone's own decision to buy or not any media, regardless of what anyone says.
My point being:
Game with a well known title will sell, if it's good, no matter what.
It's just strange that publisher decides to bring up information about DRM after some time from opening the pre-sale. Especially into such great established franchise with quite a community.

 

[Riconatic]

Just because it's not a public knowledge whether or not game with Denuvo was cracked doesn't mean that it wasn't. And why would anyone want to put itself in risk of being sued for it. Sure they can be pirated. The bigger the traction and game more popular, more people are willing to chance it. But I might as well be full of it. However, this particular DRM already showed many times, how grossly oversteps it's boundaries, and that's the real reason people don't like it.
Nonetheless, it's everyone's own decision to buy or not any media, regardless of what anyone says.
My point being:
Game with a well known title will sell, if it's good, no matter what.
It's just strange that publisher decides to bring up information about DRM after some time from opening the pre-sale. Especially into such great established franchise with quite a community.

Could you give examples what are the grossly oversteps and what line that this drm has done?

I think this discussion has listed up some. Which I do not see gross oversteps of any kind. Or atleast how I understand the meaning of that. Below are just plain simple fixable mistakes either denuvo or game dev part.
- 2021 intel 12th gen compatibility
- 2021 name server expiration
- I think year 2017 was referenced somehow, so syberia 3 performance issues or Rime

 

[Leyrann]

Because people's actions have an effect on others.

And you are the morality police?

People have the right to make their own decisions on topics such as "do you buy Civ VII if it has Denuvo?", and it's incredibly rude to berate them over giving an answer you don't like.

Saying someone is "gravely mistaken in their facts" is disrespectful, especially when that same person point blank refuses to provide any facts to back up their weak argument. Not only that, I was accused of everyone's favourite fallback when losing an argument - building a strawman. Bore off.

He literally provided the support for his argument in the very part of his post that I copied.

Also, wording along the lines of "gravely mistaken in your facts" (combined with him saying English isn't his first language) is precisely why I wouldn't be surprised if he uses machine translations. It's very awkward wording, not something that would ever be used by someone who is comfortable with English. So maybe back off a bit and stop assuming the worst, mmkay? I strongly suspect that a word-by-word translation of 'gravely', 'mistaken', 'in', 'your', 'facts' into his native language sounds respectful, as opposed to disrespectful.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Could you give examples what are the grossly oversteps and what line that this drm has done?

I think this discussion has listed up some. Which I do not see gross oversteps of any kind. Or atleast how I understand the meaning of that. Below are just plain simple fixable mistakes either denuvo or game dev part.
- 2021 intel 12th gen compatibility
- 2021 name server expiration
- I think year 2017 was referenced somehow, so syberia 3 performance issues or Rime

Anything that needlessly consumes resources, clock cycles, and network bandwidth is gross misuse of my hardware that I don't want.
Personally had to deal with it in:
Resident Evil 2 - fps drops, could not get steady framerate before Bandai dropped it.
Just Cause 3 - this one contacted servers so many times it almost chocked my cpu with longer sessions.
Anno 1800 - could not play because my laptop was out of bandwidth for too long.
Tekken 7 - I could not even get a steady game online, that went away after Bandai decided to drop it. Additionally, I was also testing which proton version works best in terms of performance, and game locked me from playing at all, as I was informed I installed it on more than five machines which was not true and the last straw for me.

Any game that uses token, can lock me from gaming, if I change hardware (or compatibility module on linux) too many times.
Also Anti-Tamper itself offers no rights management.

 

[Atlas627]

This is one of the saddest "I'm OK that corporations inconvenience me" posts I've ever seen. You state that Denuvo offers you no drawbacks, then immediately list two ways it negatively affects you. Let me ask another question: what benefit does Denuvo confer to you?

You also have a complete disregard for other people. Not everyone's machines take Denuvo as well as yours apparently does, and not everyone can guarantee 100% access to the Internet. Nor should they have to.

1) They said "here are the 2 ways it could inconvenience people" (which means they were thinking about other people), "but I don't care about those things so they don't inconvenience me".

2) The developers are people too. This is not "complete disregard for other people", if it even is disregard for other people.

3) Why do they have to boycott the game for the sake of everyone else not having to deal with Denuvo? Those people can make their own decisions.

Please don't post inflammatory remakes like "you are gravely mistaken in your facts" and the refuse to elaborate.

They literally elaborated in the rest of their message, and I think "you have a complete disregard for other people" is much more inflammatory than "you are gravely mistaken in your facts", even if I ignore that English clearly isn't their first language.

 

[Riconatic]

Anything that needlessly consumes resources, clock cycles, and network bandwidth is gross misuse of my hardware that I don't want.
Personally had to deal with it in:
Resident Evil 2 - fps drops, could not get steady framerate before Bandai dropped it.
Just Cause 3 - this one contacted servers so many times it almost chocked my cpu with longer sessions.
Anno 1800 - could not play because my laptop was out of bandwidth for too long.
Tekken 7 - I could not even get a steady game online, that went away after Bandai decided to drop it. Additionally, I was also testing which proton version works best in terms of performance, and game locked me from playing at all, as I was informed I installed it on more than five machines which was not true and the last straw for me.

Any game that uses token, can lock me from gaming, if I change hardware (or compatibility module on linux) too many times.
Also Anti-Tamper itself offers no rights management.

Tekken 7 i am familiar with. Implementation was done badly. Namco or someone put denuvo code on critical path. And that is bad idea on any coding.

But that said I am in totally different opinion what is grossly overstep. I do not think very much software exists in world that fullfill your requirement that every instruction is just for your benefit.
Even the smallest embedded software we make contains some lines of code just for software makers benefit.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Tekken 7 i am familiar with. Implementation was done badly. Namco or someone put denuvo code on critical path. And that is bad idea on any coding.

But that said I am in totally different opinion what is grossly overstep. I do not think very much software exists in world that fullfill your requirement that every instruction is just for your benefit.
Even the smallest embedded software we make contains some lines of code just for software makers benefit.

If I'm a paying customer for software that does not behave the way it was stated and has a 3rd party embedded that misuses my hardware and waves any rights is something I don't want to use. Period.

 

[Atlas627]

If I'm a paying customer for software that does not behave the way it was stated and has a 3rd party embedded that misuses my hardware and waves any rights is something I don't want to use. Period.

But 1) they're stating it has the Anti-Tamper and 2) the Anti-Cheat is the software that misuses your hardware (and due to the corresponding EULA that companies have been doing but Firaxis may or may not do, waives your rights), not the Anti-Tamper.

 

[TreVor_ish]

But 1) they're stating it has the Anti-Tamper and 2) the Anti-Cheat is the software that misuses your hardware (and due to the corresponding EULA that companies have been doing but Firaxis may or may not do, waives your rights), not the Anti-Tamper.

Then I'm sorry, but You misunderstood my previous post.

 

[Riconatic]

If I'm a paying customer for software that does not behave the way it was stated and has a 3rd party embedded that misuses my hardware and waves any rights is something I don't want to use. Period.

Then again it does not have 3rd party. It has denuvo library that game maker puts there themselves. It part of the same first party code you run anyways.

In any case tekken 7 case was no different than any other performance bug. With same standards you cannot buy anything from Namco ever again. It was their fault. Actually you can’t buy anything for any devloper that ever had performance bug in their code. I am not sure if you can hold your standrds same for every software you use.

 

[Atlas627]

Then I'm sorry, but You misunderstood my previous post.

Ok, which way is it behaving in an unstated way, and what is the 3rd party embedded code doing that misuses your hardware or waives your rights?

Or were you just speaking in theoreticals?

 

[TreVor_ish]

Ok, which way is it behaving in an unstated way, and what is the 3rd party embedded code doing that misuses your hardware or waives your rights?

Or were you just speaking in theoreticals?

The one that I state my personal experience. (is it that hard?)

 

[TreVor_ish]

Then again it does not have 3rd party. It has denuvo library that game maker puts there themselves. It part of the same first party code you run anyways.

In any case tekken 7 case was no different than any other performance bug. With same standards you cannot buy anything from Namco ever again. It was their fault. Actually you can’t buy anything for any devloper that ever had performance bug in their code. I am not sure if you can hold your standrds same for every software you use.

So You just take only one example and make it a staple?
There are multiple, from many people. Written and documented analysis on steam discussions, reddit, youtube.
I already said, it's anyone's own decision if they want to buy a software or not. I'm just saying, that if I see Denuvo it's an istant - no buy.

 

[Atlas627]

The one that I state my personal experience. (is it that hard?)

Ah, 3 posts ago. You had said previous post so I assumed immediately previous. I don't see why you have to be rude about it, though.

So You just take only one example and make it a staple?
There are multiple, from many people. Written and documented analysis on steam discussions, reddit, youtube.
I already said, it's anyone's own decision if they want to buy a software or not. I'm just saying, that if I see Denuvo it's an istant - no buy.

Are you referring to all the ones we've discussed in this thread, which are about the Anti-Cheat and not the Anti-Tamper? I haven't seen any analysis that finds fault with the Anti-Tamper, only anecdotes that games that have it have problems, which isn't conclusive in any sense. Most games have problems, and unless someone has done actual analysis I don't see it as reasonable to assume the Anti-Tamper did it.

And yes of course, you are welcome to not buy the game because of Denuvo, even if it isn't conclusive. But many people are presenting their anecdotes as if they are conclusive, and this makes it harder for other people to make their own decision. I am not for Denuvo, but I am for everyone being able to make their own decision, which means providing accurate information in public forums such as this one.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Ah, 3 posts ago. You had said previous post so I assumed immediately previous. I don't see why you have to be rude about it, though.

Are you referring to all the ones we've discussed in this thread, which are about the Anti-Cheat and not the Anti-Tamper? I haven't seen any analysis that finds fault with the Anti-Tamper, only anecdotes that games that have it have problems, which isn't conclusive in any sense. Most games have problems, and unless someone has done actual analysis I don't see it as reasonable to assume the Anti-Tamper did it.

And yes of course, you are welcome to not buy the game because of Denuvo, even if it isn't conclusive. But many people are presenting their anecdotes as if they are conclusive, and this makes it harder for other people to make their own decision. I am not for Denuvo, but I am for everyone being able to make their own decision, which means providing accurate information in public forums such as this one.

You can't see the difference do You?
And don't play rude card, You clearly fishing for it.
Token authorization is not Anti-Cheat, which also clearly shows fishing for confusion.

 

[Atlas627]

You can't see the difference do You?
And don't play rude card, You clearly fishing for it.
Token authorization is not Anti-Cheat, which also clearly shows fishing for confusion.

I...what?

I don't know what you're referring to re: difference. I'm making multiple guesses to try and figure it out, but you aren't elaborating, so I still don't know.

I don't see how you've assumed I'm trying to get people to be rude to me on purpose, but clearly there's no point talking to you anymore.

Frankly, I don't know what you're talking about re: token authorization either. So perhaps I am confused, but it is ridiculous to say I'm "fishing for confusion".