Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[Sun Tzu Wu]

+1. I turned it off for the same reasons. And it was not only in the end game.

The problem with turning off the Civ IV BtS espionage system is one will never learn how to effectively use it to one's advantage and never learn how to defend against the AIs pathetic attempts at using it. It is at worse annoying to suffer the AIs pathetic attempts at using espionage; it is hardly game breaking as the last two posters seem to suggest.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Funky]

speaking of pathetic espionage system, I cannot never forget the painful frustrating experience that i always had with espionage system in CIV4. Near the end game, it was out of control. Every turn, mines and improvements sabotaged everywhere, one city water supply poisoned, another was hit by 10 unhappiness, and it was happening every freaking turn. the funny thing was, in some cases i was not even at war!

so these days, when i play civ4, i totally turn off espionage to avoid all that crazy headache.

and my friend, that was a broken pathetic system. so please don't come here , pretend to be a know all,and defend a broken mechanism.

This made me chuckle. Seems like someone doesn't know how to counter espionage. Tip: Look for advice in the forums, or even the civilopedia for that matter, and try to improve your play. Espionage is easily countered in Civ 4. Saying that it was broken just reveals a major lack of skill in this area and an attitude to resign to a challenge instead of attempting to master it.

 

[pilot00]

I thought I was the only one that hated that unholy slider.

You are actually (between the two of us that is) I may call it damnable, because it caused me a few headaches but I loved the damned thing!

 

[pilot00]

The problem with turning off the Civ IV BtS espionage system is one will never learn how to effectively use it to one's advantage and never learn how to defend against the AIs pathetic attempts at using it. It is at worse annoying to suffer the AIs pathetic attempts at using espionage; it is hardly game breaking as the last two posters seem to suggest.

Sun Tzu Wu

I would echo the post above. It was not broken at all, all things considered it is as annoying as having city states flipping every turn to coups when you have given them thousands of gold (and your spy been in there since eternity). With both mechanics you need to learn them and adapt. The AI is and was pathetic at using said systems.

And you don't need war for sabotage and espionage.
If I tell you how many 'Non-foreign-Non-neighbour-Non-agents' arsonists are arrested in my side of the globe every year you will be surprised.

 

[Civking5]

This made me chuckle. Seems like someone doesn't know how to counter espionage. Tip: Look for advice in the forums, or even the civilopedia for that matter, and try to improve your play. Espionage is easily countered in Civ 4. Saying that it was broken just reveals a major lack of skill in this area and an attitude to resign to a challenge instead of attempting to master it.

I read some tips about it, but honestly the whole espionage thing in civ4 seemed like work to me and killed the fun. So I am better off without it when playing civ4. Moreover, i always felt that the espionage actions are very unrealistic in civ4. How many times do you see in the world that one country's water supply gets poisoned every year?

 

[pilot00]

I read some tips about it, but honestly the whole espionage thing in civ4 seemed like work to me and killed the fun. So I am better off without it when playing civ4. Moreover, i always felt that the espionage actions are very unrealistic in civ4. How many times do you see in the world that one country's water supply gets poisoned every year?

How many times does a great engineer gets shoved in the foundation of a wonder to get it build in one year (game time)? Or how plausible was it to have a spaceship for the nearest star system launch in 1700AD? Even in 2050 its not plausible

Trying to rationalize gameplay mechanics with real world events doesn't cut it really.
And to be honest poisoning water supplies had been a valid tactic in history. It just doesn't happen in modern day due to politics.

We use depleted uranium shelling and phosphor tipped munitions for those kinds of things

 

[Civking5]

How many times does a great engineer gets shoved in the foundation of a wonder to get it build in one year (game time)? Or how plausible was it to have a spaceship for the nearest star system launch in 1700AD? Even in 2050 its not plausible

Trying to rationalize gameplay mechanics with real world events doesn't cut it really.
And to be honest poisoning water supplies had been a valid tactic in history. It just doesn't happen in modern day due to politics.

We use depleted uranium shelling and phosphor tipped munitions for those kinds of things

I see your point about realism and we better not get into it. The most important question here is whether espionage system in civ4 is fun or not? In my book, it is not. Therefore, in a game perspective point of view, it is broken.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

speaking of pathetic espionage system, I cannot never forget the painful frustrating experience that i always had with espionage system in CIV4. Near the end game, it was out of control. Every turn, mines and improvements sabotaged everywhere, one city water supply poisoned, another was hit by 10 unhappiness, and it was happening every freaking turn. the funny thing was, in some cases i was not even at war!

so these days, when i play civ4, i totally turn off espionage to avoid all that crazy headache.

and my friend, that was a broken pathetic system. so please don't come here , pretend to be a know all,and defend a broken mechanism.

Civ 4 espionage was pretty easy to defend, place spies in your city, build Security Bureau, counter espionage etc etc. Very far from broken.

 

[Tatran]

i totally turn off espionage to avoid all that crazy headache.

And that's not the only thing you've turned off, but you are probably not aware of it.
Hint : what are you doing in this thread?

Moderator Action: Please do not get personal, it is trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Civking5]

And that's not the only thing you've turned off, but you are probably not aware of it.
Hint : what are you doing in this thread?

What do u mean? Are you trying to be funny or sarcastic?

Moderator Action: Please do not answer troll posts, report them and let the staff handle it.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[pilot00]

Therefore, in a game perspective point of view, it is broken.

I understand your point as well but I would change it thus: In your own perspective and point of view For example I find it extremely fun because I can cause mischief to my adversaries and play innocent, which to me if fun

 

[Aristos]

What do u mean? Are you trying to be funny or sarcastic?

Hint: look at Tatran's avatar to find out what else might be turned off.

Moderator Action: Please do not participate in the trolling, it only makes it worse.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[pilot00]

Hint: look at Tatran's avatar to find out what else might be turned off.

Regardless of....commenting on what its turned on or off (I really dont want to take part in this), that avatar pretty much surmises CiV Lets hope it doesnt get back to III as well....

 

[Naokaukodem]

Civ 4 espionage was pretty easy to defend, place spies in your city, build Security Bureau, counter espionage etc etc. Very far from broken.

Yep, I placed spies in cities but strangely it didn't stop the sabotage spam.

Defensive spies ? Really ? Where is the fun in that ? The worst, being that as a player you even didn't see any serious benefit in spaming the AI of sabotages, or only in a rage of revenge. It was there only to troll the human player, as Civ5 AI that insults you.

 

[pilot00]

Yep, I placed spies in cities but strangely it didn't stop the sabotage spam.

Defensive spies ? Really ? Where is the fun in that ? The worst, being that as a player you even didn't see any serious benefit in spaming the AI of sabotages, or only in a rage of revenge. It was there only to troll the human player, as Civ5 AI that insults you.

How though it is exactly fun to use spies on the defense in 5 but not in 4?

Anyways, what bugged me the most in 5 is something that most people I know dont give a damn about: Soundtrack. In 4 first and foremost it was the menu/intro theme.
That thing was an ode to humanity!
And my second close favorite was 'the people are the heroes' from that old American play.

5s music is passable/indifferent with the odd exception.

 

[salty mud]

I always tear up at England's song. I Vow to Thee My Country indeed.

 

[whyidie]

@whyidle:

In a perfect world, in which processing power of computers as well as the algorithms which constitute AI are both so good that they don't pose any limitations whatsoever, you are right, 1UPT could work. Though even then problems of scale and the question whether 1UPT suits a game like Civ would remain very prevalent.
But we don't live in a perfect world, we have to deal with what lies within the boundaries of reality. So while in an abstract theoretical sense 1UPT is possible (and has been made to work other games, as long as they were restricted in other areas), in the concrete reality of Civ the limitations caused by 1UPT are indeed very much inherent to the system.

Claiming that all we need are larger maps and a better AI for 1UPT to work is kind of like saying that all we need to solve the problems of energy supplies is to have more oil. Sounds simple, but neglects the circumstances we live in.

Hah, good analogy, but the complexity of the two things is not equal.

Let me first start by again conceding that none of this is feasible in Civ5. I do not expect them to be able to implement any changes in this version. Too much of an overhaul.

However, I do believe that they can offset some of the problems created by 1upt in Civ6. Larger map sizes are indeed achievable. My first thought upon playing 5 was, "wheres the rest of the map". Maps were larger in prior releases. So we know it can be done. What are the tradeoffs, and where can they optimize. Functional fixes can also be introduced. A bad example is checkpoints. Scroll to point X on the map and you pause for 5 seconds while textures are loaded. Bad idea yes, but I can't tell you how many development problems I've fixed with a bad idea to start things off. Many things can be done as far as map size is concerned, this really is the easy bit.

In terms of the AI, I'm not proposing they can develop a true AI. They'll still have to use handicaps, its more of which ones to use when. Apparently some of the modders have done a finer job of balancing the AI. Of the two, this is by far the larger task, and I shudder to think of the work involved.

 

[SirPepsi]

I love Espionage in both CiV and BTS, though I will admit that the BTS spies were a lot more entertaining - I enjoyed sending them across the map - seeing them sneak around and blowing up my enemies' oil resources ;.

I also enjoyed using them for exploration or for converting culture and fomenting unhappiness (especially in the Civ 1000 AD mod with Europe so tightly packed; I loved messing with Barcelona, Cordoba, Bremen, Ribe, Salzburg, and London as France and eventually getting them to flip!

I do like the "Steal Technology" and Intel actions in CiV, but I detest the fact that I can't move my spies about the map and wreak havoc! I have to gather intel, rig elections, and steal tech - kinda boring after awhile, especially when it takes 42 turns to steal a technology most of the time. It puzzled me as to why, in G&K, they removed the spy movements - how is he supposed to travel from one end of the globe to another with no line of sight? Despite the fact that reality is obviously not going to come into play in a game, I do wish some of the extra spy actions had not been shorthanded and taken from the game.

 

[pilot00]

I love Espionage in both CiV and BTS, though I will admit that the BTS spies were a lot more entertaining - I enjoyed sending them across the map - seeing them sneak around and blowing up my enemies' oil resources ;.

I also enjoyed using them for exploration or for converting culture and fomenting unhappiness (especially in the Civ 1000 AD mod with Europe so tightly packed; I loved messing with Barcelona, Cordoba, Bremen, Ribe, Salzburg, and London as France and eventually getting them to flip!

I do like the "Steal Technology" and Intel actions in CiV, but I detest the fact that I can't move my spies about the map and wreak havoc! I have to gather intel, rig elections, and steal tech - kinda boring after awhile, especially when it takes 42 turns to steal a technology most of the time. It puzzled me as to why, in G&K, they removed the spy movements - how is he supposed to travel from one end of the globe to another with no line of sight? Despite the fact that reality is obviously not going to come into play in a game, I do wish some of the extra spy actions had not been shorthanded and taken from the game.

As far as I know, with BNW you will be able to have formally one of your spies as a diplomat in another civs capital. That will help with relations, but he will be able to initiate propaganda too! Dunno exactly what that means but it has to be relevant to the 'cultural flips' me thinks

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yep, I placed spies in cities but strangely it didn't stop the sabotage spam.

Defensive spies ? Really ? Where is the fun in that ? The worst, being that as a player you even didn't see any serious benefit in spaming the AI of sabotages, or only in a rage of revenge. It was there only to troll the human player, as Civ5 AI that insults you.

I definitely agree that using espionage defensively is boring. However, it is great fun using espionage offensively. Supporting City Revolts while your SoD waits to attack. Destroying Walls, Castles, Security Bureaus, Jails, etc. Stealing Technologies, Injecting Culture, switch religion/civics and many other missions. All very much fun to do to the AIs. Great Spy infiltrations to set up espionage mayhem upon a poor AI. Try it, you might like it. All possible with BtS. None of these are possible with the Civ V espionage system.

Sun Tzu Wu