Civilization 5 Rants Thread

I played civ5 for a long time to see how it has changed. Comparing to civ4 is it just me or why do I got feeling that absolutely nothing is happening civ5? I feel techs are researched ridiculous fast when comparing how slow it is to build buildings. Not mention wonders. It is utterly nonsense that ancient wonders like Oracle and Stonehenge are usually build in medieval era because they need so much production.

AI was totaly horrible. I had a really long war against Egypt. Guess did they protect their settlers and workers? I had to delete some workers because I simply had too many of them. When I was sieging their last city and looted all improvents AI only producted more workes, not at all military units. Had they producted them my war whould have been complitely stalemate.

I feel also that game is totaly broken when it comes to city states. Improve your economy when you produce +100 gold in turn. Then simply buy all citystates on your side. Free troops, free recources, bases anywhere in the world, lot of free culture, food, commerce and production and no any penalties from cities. In couple of games I simply did that and I was always most powerfull civ.
 
I've been playing Civ since the beginning. Civ II ToT or Civ II Gold are my favorite for sentimental reasons, but if I'm honest with myself, I feel it achieved near perfection in terms of interface and gameplay options in IV. With that said, I recently finally got Civ V and have played it for a little over a week now. This is the review for the game I just posted to newegg (it won't be up for a few days.) Note that I have not tried any of the expanded content or mods yet, so this is just my impression of the vanilla Civ V game:

Three out of five eggs.

"Great 4x strategy as always, but with some missteps."

PROS:

  • Same great 4x strategy that Civ has always been known for, once you get used to the new interface and gameplay changes.
  • Once again playable with just a mouse and nothing else if that's what you want to do.
  • City States are an interesting addition.
  • Beautiful aesthetic design.
  • Hex grid, lack of unit stacking, and specialized ranged units allow for deeper strategy.
  • Resources seem to be more finite and to matter more, which also adds greater strategic depth. They are also one of your only bargaining chips during diplomacy now, which makes them much more important than before.
  • Civic policies allow for greater customization of civilizations' governance and nature.
  • Tutorial eventually tells you just about everything you need to know, provided you're willing to read a bit.
  • Some nice new diplomacy options, including a request for opponents not to build cities near your borders. (But see Cons and Further Thoughts for some caveats.)
  • Some nice late game techs and units.

CONS:

  • Somewhat less initially intuitive, more cluttered interface with more menus to dig through than Civ IV.
  • Can't zoom all the way out to a large top-down view like you could in Civ IV.
  • Sense of the Earth being curved is gone, in favor of bringing back the flat look of the earlier games.
  • Simple, narrated tutorial is gone. In its place is a series of tool tips and advisor screens that you will see in the course of a normal game anyway provided you set the tool tips to "New to Civ." It's functional and tells you everything you need to know, but instead of narrating everything, you have to read quite a bit.
  • Related to the previous point: TINY text when running on any high resolution, even just 1080p, and even on a large display. (This is adjustable via ini tweaks but an in-game option would have been greatly appreciated.)
  • Religions are entirely gone, and with them a large component of Civ IV's cultural game. There is a "Peity" branch in the civil policies, but that's about it.
  • Culture seems to play a substantially more limited role. It allows you to adopt civil policies at a faster and faster rate, but it has almost no tactical relevance beyond those policies' affect on your nation's economy, research, and production.
  • You can still win in a variety of ways, but the path to those victories feel less distinct than in Civ IV.
  • It's much harder to form alliances.
  • There is NO technology trading. This is a big mistake in my opinion, as gifting techs was not only a way to supply alliances with an equal military footing during conflicts, but also a big component of the peaceful strategy, which is all but impossible now. Being benevolent toward a Civ that hates your guts (which sometimes happens from your first meeting no matter what you offer them) now means sacrificing extremely limited, and much needed, resources. (Note: You CAN enter into a shared research pact, which gives you both a technology at the cost of some gold, but it's not as practical as simply trading or gifting techs.)
  • Countries will inevitably hate and wage war on you, and all you can offer them are monetary offerings. Which generally confer no benefit in their attitude toward you whatsoever. The aforementioned lack of technology trading hinders you further in this regard as well.
  • Games tend to progress similarly from one to the next, so despite it still being Civ's greatest strength compared to many other games, it still feels lacking in replay value compared to previous entries in this particular series.
  • Largely the same old tech tree we've had for three games now, with a fresh coat of paint and a few buildings added, rearranged, or replaced.
  • City States, while a great idea and an interesting addition, ultimately just become more of a nuisance than anything else. You have to constantly keep them happy or the few benefits they confer are lost, and they frequently drag you into war with other Civs.
  • No more vassal states. Countries no longer capitulate to become your vassals. Instead when capturing a city you can choose to annex it, raze it, or turn it into a puppet state. This means that you get the benefits like gold and resources from them, but you have no control over them. Coupled with the aforementioned inability to trade techs, this makes them far less useful or controllable than Civ IV's vassal states.
  • No ability (that I've found) to adjust the gold/research/culture ratio as in previous games. I.e. if I'm in the red, I can't turn down gold production to make it a net gain. (On the plus side, this does make management of buildings more relevant. I'm torn on whether I prefer it this way or as it was.)
  • Despite what I feel is greater strategic depth, poor AI makes for a less challenging game. Harder difficulties are punishing, to the point of seeming like cheating. But the actual AI is less daunting than it should be. Important cities and units are not effectively defended, and overwhelming an opponent with sheer numbers is a viable tactic. Cumulatively, the game feels a lot easier than Civ IV. Or even Civ Revolution for that matter in some respects.
ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:

At the end of the day, this is a great strategy game. It's worthy of the Civ name and brings a lot of positive changes to the table. Strategically and tactically it's a deeper, more satisfying experience ultimately. You feel a lot more like a tactician, forward deploying front lines, withdrawing the first wave and carrying out follow on attacks, and keeping artillery and other ranged units in the rear. Fighting over resources is a real and necessary strategy now as well.

But its detracting issues still leave me wanting more. Especially how similar each game feels to the next. A cultural victory means filling up five of the civil policy trees, which means pumping out sufficient culture to adopt policies more frequently than your opponents. But that's something you'll be trying to do anyway if you have any interest in expanding your borders.

Military victory is straightforward, but if you're ahead technologically you're likely ahead in production and military units as well anyway so conflict eventually tends to become unavoidable, or just as feasible an option.

Diplomatic victory once again involves building the U.N. and voting but by the time you get there you will have already had a lot of battles and adopted a lot of policies as well. Since your options for fostering peace are extremely limited, you usually have no choice but to fight even if your goal is peaceful. The same goes for the space race, which is virtually unchanged. It seems a bit too easy to reach any and all of the victory goals, with little substantive gameplay difference between them in terms of what you'll experience while progressing toward them, no matter which nation you play as.

All in all, I'm at least fairly happy with the game. If you love Civ, you'll likely enjoy this, but the degree to which you will depends greatly on what you liked and didn't like about Civ IV. If you fell in love with any of the things about Civ IV that are gone from this game, you may end up feeling underwhelmed and disappointed.

Fortunately, the strategic depth and the good things it brings to the table - to say nothing of the DX II tessellation and fresh coat of paint it spruces things up with - are enough to make it worth it to me, since it's been a while since I've played Civ IV. I still have a good time with it despite its issues. But I'm hoping some of the available (or future) DLC, none of which I've tried yet or read up on, will address some of these issues. If not, I'll be disappointed despite enjoying the game overall.

Note to game designers: rules and limits are important and are what form the challenge we overcome within games. That's a given. But we should always feel free to exercise options within those rules, and Civ V made me feel less able to do that than Civ IV did. If the game was more challenging as a result, that would be a good thing. But that it does this while posing less of a challenge is not a good thing in my opinion. This seems like a good lesson to learn in terms of design philosophy.
 
That's too reasonable to be called a rant :).

Some things that you mention improved in Gods and Kings (for instance, a rather cool religion mechanic was introduced; also, city states have more interactions).
 
Welcome to the forums, Vamphaery! [party]
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. 'Twas a good read.

I think the point you make in your closing paragraph is enlightened.
 
Agreed! I absolutely hate the fact that installing Civ V requires installing Steam.

Steam and anything installed by Steam is not wanted on my system.

I want only the games I installed on my system. I certainly do not want their installers (Steam in this case) on my system.

The mere presence of Steam on my system is enough to squash any thought of starting Civ V on it rather than starting untainted Civ IV BtS (doesn't require Steam to run).
Agreed! Well said. :goodjob:

My 1st day special addition sits in the box. Sure looks good with the little pieces & bad-ass looking black box. Wanta buy it anyone?

Why can't whoever is in charge DO something about it? Are they THAT much in bed with the owners of "Steam"!? :mad:
 
Thanks for the welcome. :) I'm a many-many-year lurker lol. Internet communities disturb and frighten me these days. :P

G&K looks like a really nice expansion and does sound like it addresses some of the issues I had with the game. Religion in particular sounds awesome. I also forgot to mention that I really like the city defense mechanic. It's logical and makes capturing cities much more of a real action, especially combined with the lack of unit stacking and the necessity of ranged attacks now in place.

It seems like the only DLC one "has" to buy in order to get all of the additional wonders and so forth are G&K and Wonders of the Ancient World. The rest are just maps, scenarios, and civilizations, right? I will add to my cons, "having to pay for maps" lol.
 
Very classy rant, Vamphaery!

Excellent review! Several of your cons do not surface much in this thread.

Gods and Kings add Religion and Espionage. The Religion subsystem seems to depend on finding Religious City States too much. The Espionage subsystem is a mere tack-on that doesn't deserve the name. If you made heavy use of the Civ IV Espionage subsystem, you will be utterly disappointed in Civ V's Espionage subsystem. In Civ V, Espionage can't be used until quite late in the game and the Spies aren't even units that can be deployed on the map. There are very few missions to choose from and no targets smaller than an entire Civ.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Thanks for the welcome. :) I'm a many-many-year lurker lol. Internet communities disturb and frighten me these days. :P

G&K looks like a really nice expansion and does sound like it addresses some of the issues I had with the game. Religion in particular sounds awesome. I also forgot to mention that I really like the city defense mechanic. It's logical and makes capturing cities much more of a real action, especially combined with the lack of unit stacking and the necessity of ranged attacks now in place.

It seems like the only DLC one "has" to buy in order to get all of the additional wonders and so forth are G&K and Wonders of the Ancient World. The rest are just maps, scenarios, and civilizations, right? I will add to my cons, "having to pay for maps" lol.

G&K is the worst piece of crap ever, apart from Civ V vanilla of course.
 
G&K is the worst piece of crap ever, apart from Civ V vanilla of course.

Save me some money, then. Persuade me of that opinion with reasonable points and I'll look further into it and decide whether I agree with you on that.

I appreciate it either way.
 
I do not know what the developer have done, got a bunch of updates (on Tuesday) and now Civ V keeps crashing after 4-5 turns - this sucks.

Never had this problem since I purchased this game in July, never had this much trouble, it seems like the programmers can not leave there hands off something that works.

I just wish Civ V came on a disk so that the program never updates.

Really PO'd at this game, PO'd at the developers - just leave the damn game alone and stop messing and sending out updates.
 
I do not know what the developer have done, got a bunch of updates (on Tuesday) and now Civ V keeps crashing after 4-5 turns - this sucks.

Never had this problem since I purchased this game in July, never had this much trouble, it seems like the programmers can not leave there hands off something that works.

I just wish Civ V came on a disk so that the program never updates.

Really PO'd at this game, PO'd at the developers - just leave the damn game alone and stop messing and sending out updates.

There has not been any update for the game, this sounds more like a steam issue. Also are you using any mod?
 
Save me some money, then. Persuade me of that opinion with reasonable points and I'll look further into it and decide whether I agree with you on that.

I appreciate it either way.

IMO it's not so much that G&K is bad in itself. It's more that it tries to solve problems which are unsolvable, since the core mechanics of Civ 5 are fundamentally broken. You will still be playing the same boring, repetitive, and unrealistic game, only with a few extra (poorly implemented) features. See this review for further details.
 
Save me some money, then. Persuade me of that opinion with reasonable points and I'll look further into it and decide whether I agree with you on that.

I appreciate it either way.

Based on your own review ( which by the way you shouldn't have put in rant thread), you gave the game 3 out of 5,and you said you are enjoying the game. In this case, G&k will definitely work for you which adds new civs/units/techs/resources/buildings/religion/ espionage etc. I would wait for one of the steam sales ( i think one will be around easter time? ) and get G&k.
 
There has not been any update for the game, this sounds more like a steam issue. Also are you using any mod?

Every so often I get this message - wait for update and then it uploads changes - do not know if it is a steam update or Civ update - but I wish I had a choice between these auto updates from steam - tired of others making changes in programs that I am happy with.

Been using the same mods for many months with no issues

Beyond the future
Farm mod
In game editor
Area 56
 
Every so often I get this message - wait for update and then it uploads changes - do not know if it is a steam update or Civ update - but I wish I had a choice between these auto updates from steam - tired of others making changes in programs that I am happy with.

Set Steam to off-line mode. In this mode, Steam should not even access its servers, much less update any software it controls.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I found that if you do not tell it to start with Windows 8 (ie touch screen) that it does not crash as much - still crashing more then before but a little more stable.

Did have a weird experience last night - internet went out and while I was able to load Vic V all my mods were lost.

As soon as the internet came back on line, the mods reloaded. Thought the players were able to play Civ offline !
 
I found that if you do not tell it to start with Windows 8 (ie touch screen) that it does not crash as much - still crashing more then before but a little more stable.

Did have a weird experience last night - internet went out and while I was able to load Vic V all my mods were lost.

As soon as the internet came back on line, the mods reloaded. Thought the players were able to play Civ offline !

Maybe, setting Steam to off-line mode will ensure mods are cached locally. It seems like poor design to require them to be downloaded on demand (when needed).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Another Rant....

Why bother capturing CS !! I find it interesting that even when you capture a CS, it sill shows up as an independent nation under diplomacy... What give with that.

Can can a player captured CS have loyalty or remain loyal to a different AI ?

The only thing I found a CS is good for is to trade later on - have to upload the capital burn Mod
 
Could we please have City States that actually do something, seek trade, even go to war with other city states, even create political crises' that could start an all out war which can/will start to spread? Or is that too difficult for the obvious babysitter mentality that Firaxis has developed for this game? Why do AI's not develop trade resources, the few that exist in this game, why doesn't economic incentive not dictate policy in this game 100x more so? Just like in the real world including every single empire since the start of civilization from Akkad to modern times.

Sphere of influence, what's that? I see no troops, trade posts etc. in any CS by said Civilization? Why can't we have actual advisers that we can dismiss and assign to certain slots such as Military, Manufacturing, Culture, Science, and yes even Foreign Relations?
 
Well I came back to civfanatics to see if it is worth it to reinstall Civ 5 once more.. thanks for saving me the bandwidth
 
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