Will Steam steal my identity and eat everything in my fridge and crap on the floor and download viruses and try to murder my family and sell my information to third parties and order novelty pencils and change my homepage to goaste and steal my money and invest all my money in gold and hire assassins and take embarrassing pictures of me and then post embarrassing Facebook messages like everyone says it will?
Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ
- Thread starter 2K Greg
- Start date
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Yes, but that is only the tip of the iceberg. Whole universa have been decimated by Steam.
Still, Steam sucks.
Still, Steam sucks.
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
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How is information collecting a "leak on the ship"? As if they keep doing it the world's gonna end or something. That analogy seems extremely hyperbolic.
My point is that if you think Steam is a legit concern for your well being, then stop using credit cards, ATM cards, debit cards, Windows, MacOS, anything Google makes, pretty much any online service, cell phones (or anything that uses wireless), DVR's, any business that keeps records, grocery store preferred customer cards, etc. Because all those record your usage, spending and behavior - to be packaged up and sold to who know how many different marketing firms as they see fit. It's the reality of today, and throwing such a fuss over a small piece of software seems to me to be irrational.
I only play single players. I have CIV 4 and have never used multi player. I use custom games and thats it. When installation asked do I want to install gamespy, I said NO. If they want to use steam use it for multi player users only. Everyone else can manage their own updates and registration. Why can't 2K?
I have already boycotted EA games after my ISP went down and my game I was playing in single player mode went with it, didn't even bother to save so hrs down the drain.
I want CIV 5 on DVD, I install it , enter some key code thats printed on a disc to say its legit and play. If 2K want to verify my code hasn't been used ok sure do it yourself. Some software companies do online registration where they email you an activation code which you get when telling them the installation key and your name.
I rather have a DVD in my drive to verify my game is legit, at least I can take that with me and not have to worry about dropped connections.
I don't want to have to worry about my internet dropping, 3rd party server dropping, while I play "MY" game.
If I want to play online I will buy and online game. I expect to need the internet to play WOW. but if I want to sit in my garden on my laptop swearing loudly at Queen Victoria who has just sunk my battleship then I sould be allowed too. I don't have a chain around my ankles I don't expect my games to have a digital one.
I have already boycotted EA games after my ISP went down and my game I was playing in single player mode went with it, didn't even bother to save so hrs down the drain.
I want CIV 5 on DVD, I install it , enter some key code thats printed on a disc to say its legit and play. If 2K want to verify my code hasn't been used ok sure do it yourself. Some software companies do online registration where they email you an activation code which you get when telling them the installation key and your name.
I rather have a DVD in my drive to verify my game is legit, at least I can take that with me and not have to worry about dropped connections.
I don't want to have to worry about my internet dropping, 3rd party server dropping, while I play "MY" game.
If I want to play online I will buy and online game. I expect to need the internet to play WOW. but if I want to sit in my garden on my laptop swearing loudly at Queen Victoria who has just sunk my battleship then I sould be allowed too. I don't have a chain around my ankles I don't expect my games to have a digital one.
Can you log on to the internet once on the Civ computer? Okay, well if your computer meets minimum specs you can play Civ V
Regardless of how many self-appointed expert claim this, I am still waiting for Greg to say this is true, AND how large a download will be required at registration. It may well be that no matter how capable my computer is, I may not be able to download a sizable "update" at registration. This the current situation for me regarding Cities XL. It requires a 500MB download, uninterrupted, before it will play
You have to be very short sighted not to be able to see the implications of this type of activity. Just take a look at what goes on in China to get an idea. The government there actively uses the internet to keep tabs on it's citizens, and some people end up being arrested because of their surfing habits. All it takes is a shift in a political climate for this sort of thing to be abused. The US came very close to it after 9/11, with illegal phone taps and electronic monitoring. Don't kid yourself that it can't happen where you live. Just look at the kinds of abuses that took place during the McCarthy era.
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
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Are you serious? Two points:
1) The wiretapping stuff was done under the PATRIOT Act, which Obama has re-upped and strengthened. So if that's your concern, it's not an issue of "the US came close". It was done, signed and delivered.
2) Why the hell would the government care about your Steam game usage patterns? More likely is that they have a deal with Microsoft to have Windows report whatever they want, but that's just paranoid speculation.
Greybriar
Prince
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- Jan 16, 2006
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- 418
Nick Danger
Steam should be optional
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2006
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It's an analogy designed to illustrate the point that your 'logic' is bassackwards.
That there are other entities collecting your personally identifiable information is a reason to be more vigilant, not less vigilant as you argue.
This is the fallacious argument Strawman, as I never said the anything remotely resembling "... if they keep doing it the world's gonna end or something.".
First, if X is a concern then how's about stop doing X?
Second, why are you assuming I am not already minimizing and/or avoiding those other entities?
First, I'm not throwing a fuss (that's another Strawman).
Second, what's irrational is ignoring a perceived problem just because it's only 1 of many such problems, as you're arguing.
If steam doesn't concern you -- great. Use it, live long, and prosper. I support you right to like steam and to speak out for steam.
Some have a concern and thus want to know:
-What personally identifiable information steam collects (and what processes does it have running)?
-Who are the 'third parties' and 'associates' said information is shared with
-What purposes is said information put to
Why is that a problem for you that you argue against this?
Its so they can see if anyone is holding a grudge by attacking america ingame too regularly and then have you blackbagged
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
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Isn't that the obvious implication of a 'leaking ship' analogy? That at some point the ship's going down?
I don't know that you're already minimizing those activities, so perhaps you are. And if that's true for most who are loudly objecting to Steam, then my point is irrelevant. My assumption (perhaps incorrect) is that someone who uses all those services regularly is now just getting mad about the mandatory installation of Steam out of 'privacy concerns' where they really had none before, and are just using it as an excuse to complain. That's what I was characterizing as 'irrational'. This debate has caused me to sound like I'm much more "pro-Steam" than I really am, but my intention is merely to show how Steam isn't as bad as many other things they might use every single day (such as GMail), if privacy is a concern of theirs.
It doesn't concern me, insomuch that I use credit cards, have a cell phone, use online banking, etc, so I don't see what my Steam usage patterns could really be worse than those. I understand why anyone would be concerned - if they're also very concerned over using those other things - so I guess to address your questions as best I can:
First, if you care enough to try, download Wireshark and then put Steam on a PC you don't care about/have personal info on and monitor all the HTTP communications. I did that and only found very basic, generic (i.e. non-peronally identifying) data being sent. But don't take my (or Valve's) word for it. Also, you could set up a Windows user for gaming where they have no read/write rights outside of their user folder - and install Steam there. It certainly really sucks that you'd have to go through all this (it'd be a WHOLE lot better if Steam weren't mandatory, I'll agree with you there), but those are ways to limit your exposure.
Second, I dunno. I seriously doubt Valve would publicly release that info - most businesses don't.
Third, unless it's the government (highly doubtful, IMO), it's probably for marketing purposes. Either to target products at specific people, or for the marketing firm to aggregate the data to derive demographics. But I'm speculating here.
The_Hess
Chieftain
Steam has an offline toggle. As long as your game doesn't specifically require internet access (such as for online multiplayer) then you will be fine to play. Football Manager 2010 was the same in terms of Steam activation, but I can still play on the train on my laptop if I want without internet access. Only the initial registration required internet access.
Effectively Steam is performing the disk check that you mention. For the most part, all these disk checks are done by a bought in piece of software. Steam is the chosen piece of software in this case. Be thankful that it is largely well written piece of software and isn't SecuROM!
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
So, give us singleplayers a disk check software, and give the rest Steam. Perhaps us singleplayers have to wait a month longer or so to play the game, well, I don't care. Is that so hard?
since Steam has the added benefit for the publisher of making used game sales impossible and collecting user data they'd have to have a really convincing argument in terms of lost sales to do that (apart from the fact that they'd have to recode part of the game engine now that they integrated steamworks into it).
Nick Danger
Steam should be optional
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2006
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- 83
No.
But if it pleases you to incorrectly think so, be my guest.
How magnanimous of you to cede that.
All 3 points are reasonable.
I agree with you that it's unlikely Valve will release the information regarding what personally identifiable info they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to. We've seen folks claim they know what steam collects -- including Elizabeth 2k -- and those claims are either false or they're holding out on the information.
I also doubt Greg 2k or anyone at 2k or Firaxis will admit they don't know (or are holding out on) what information is collected, etc. I expect silence and hopes that this'll blow over or drop off the radar. I'd like to be proven wrong. Time will tell.
Anyhoo, thanks for steering the discussion to a more productive line
Nick Danger
Steam should be optional
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- 83
It's apparent to me that valve's intention is to force steam running in the background on us, and they're hoping most will keep steam in online mode. Valve doesn't want us to have an option in this so is making it as hard as possible -- read impossible -- for it to be otherwise.
The more systems it's running on, and the more often it runs, the better for valve -- more information collected, more market share, less likely competitors will challenge them, more able to dictate what games are released and the features they contain, etc.
It's not an 'accident' that steam is presented as 'use it or lose Civ 5', it's the whole point of this.
Newell's DICE 2009 keynote address mentioned wanting to transition valve from selling games to entertainment as a service and not merely as a product. His plans require getting steam on as many systems as possible. He's using the popularity of Civ5 as the candy to lure us into his van.
Senethro
Overlord
Pffff, don't flatter yourself. Civ is big but not important enough on its own to make or break Steam. Valves own series, TW and CoD have done more for Steam's popularity.
The_Coyote
Emperor
While you are certainly right that Valve own series created the foundation of the steam user base, you certainly agree that Valve hasn´t released real TBS blockbuster games so far (at least i must have missed all of them). Also CoD (which seems to be much more successful on consoles) is more a game for a FPS player.
If you mean the Total War" series with TW, not sure if you can really add this game (only ETW is a steamworks games, or?) as "prove" for steams popularity. While the number of accounts certainly got a boost because of this (also because of DoW2 and the other steamworks strategy games), it´s hard to conlude a popularity boost for steam itself. Simply because none of us can deliver real figures how many gladly accepted the "require steam" step and how many only accepted the need to create a steam account to play the game and still dislike steam. Or how many still don´t care, which is perhaps the majority.
So while steam certainly had a big partition of the FPS players as user base and certainly not a low popularity there too, the "pure" TBS fans were still seldom compared to the FPS market (of course this is only a guess, not a proved fact - but as long no one can prove the opposite ...). So yes, for Valve a new sub-segment of the market is opened, the "pure" TBS players. And while ETW, DoW2 surely already covered a part of the TBS players (or more general the strategy game player), you will surely agree that the Civilization series is the queen under the TBS games.
Off course there are FPS players who also like TBS games. But in general both sub-segment should have enough unique players. Perhaps now someone would also add the cliché, that FPS player are more likely to pirat a game while TBS players are more likely to buy a game, and therefore the TBS player is an interesting sub-segment. But like said, it´s only a cliché (at least i don´t know real data supporting this cliché).,
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