Civilization: Dawn of Man

[Et_Absoluti]

Chief, forgive my intrusion but perhaps we may research ways to organize shrines and properly venerated the deserts that give us life.


Ooc: I think that getting desert folk lore before it is sniped will be very beneficial to getting early religion.

 

[christos200]

Go to Gathering Place: Meet the NPCs.

Meet the Community: Mekan al-Murak City Center.

Find a Spouse.

 

[OnceAKing]

Chief, forgive my intrusion but perhaps we may research ways to organize shrines and properly venerated the deserts that give us life.


Ooc: I think that getting desert folk lore before it is sniped will be very beneficial to getting early religion.

Our chief is very pious and dedicated to the desert and fire we were blessed with. I'm sure thats a priority on his list. All our prior folklore is based on the desert.


ORDERS:
become a farmer
Trade 1 food for 1 production with Alfonso Castela

Go to gathering place
Practice Rhetoric technique

 

[Et_Absoluti]

I did not mean to insinuate that our magnificent leader was anything but pious,I was merely suggesting focusing on a certain goal.

 

[OnceAKing]

I did not mean to insinuate that our magnificent leader was anything but pious,I was merely suggesting focusing on a certain goal.

We have consensus. I agree that we should have a Shrine as soon as we have the means to do so.

 

[Tambien]

Become a Farmer
Find a Spouse
Practice Rhetoric Techniques

Anybody want to trade 1 production for 1 of my food?

I'd be up for this trade.

 

[Magnive]

Alright, trading 1 food for 1 production with Tambien.

 

[Jehoshua]

Orders/Actions:

-

~ Become a Guard
~ Go to Gathering Place
~ Meet the Community (Mekan al-Murak city centre)
~ Tell a Story* OR Train Strength

-

notes: becoming a guard and going to the gathering place cost no actions.

*I presume the story I wrote counts for the telling a story action. If that is not the case than my character Malik Shah will train strength, seeing as he will be serving as a guard for the time being. The exception to this would be if the story wouldn't count in terms of it becoming canonical lore (ergo, an accepted part of Moroccan folklore on the part of the populace) without the action, in which case you (the GM) can consider storytelling prioritised (if though the action "telling a story" merely constitutes backing for the concept being pushed, in this case tradition, as implied in the description of actions in the PM you sent me, than I won't bother with the action and go for strength-training since tradition already has a broad consensus behind it).

-

Our chief is very pious and dedicated to the desert and fire we were blessed with. I'm sure thats a priority on his list. All our prior folklore is based on the desert.

You took our cousins words in favour of a shrine to the spirits as a statement against the chiefs piety when it was not. What is clear though, as your own words reveal, is your own impious and unspiritual nature, for what man who in his heart is dedicated to the gods would so easily fawn and give obsequious praise before his chief in a vain bid for favour, putting down his fellow tribesman in the process when he humbly and rightly gave sound wisdom? You shame yourself, and should humble yourself before the man you have insulted and put down. That said to your merit you are not so vain as to disagree with the imperative of building a shrine itself, (chuckles) perhaps you are not completely without virtue and I do you wrong to call you completely unspiritual, even if you debase yourself by your worldliness and sycophancy and made a mockery this day of your title of "wise".

At any rate, I support the construction of a shrine as soon as possible, for developing the means to properly honour the gods can only bring benefit to our people. The chief I think has already set us to rights when it comes to any kind of "research" as our friend put it, enabling the construction of a suitably durable aedifice for such a shrine. Be that as it may though, it would do the chief good to reconsider the monument he intends for us to construct, the benefit to our people of such a construction is minimal and it would likely tie up much in the way of labour. We would do much better I think to train new warriors to defend the city and enable a more extensive scouting by our existing forces. As it is if we desired to explore far away from our city we would leave ourselves vulnerable, training new warriors would thus provide not only a practical benefit to the people in terms of security and strategic flexibility, but would at the same time would give time for further consideration when it comes to subsequent state projects, such a project preferably being a shrine presuming circumstances and knowledge allow but perhaps also being something else if the suitable knowledge for a proper shrine is not yet available to us.

~ Malik Shah

-

ooc: summary of comments: Verbally smite OnceAking, support the current course of pottery, oppose the immediate construction of a monument in favour of training warriors > other project preferably being a shrine (note: I can't see how long it would take for that research into pottery to conclude, if the warriors finish before its completed than obviously we'd have to work on something else. If pottery finishes before the warriors, than obviously we should go straight into appeasing the gods, if not than whatever is more time-appropriate at the chiefs discretion)

ooc2 @GM: I presume the run of the mill political utterances, like the kind above a) have some effect and b) don't count as public "speeches" since they don't constitute anything to the effect of ones character taking up a spot on the public rostrum and orating to the NPC mob a la cicero?

 

[filli_noctus]

The time is not right for equipping more warriors, there will come a time soon but it is not now. Yes, the construction of the monument uses much labour, but by doing so it speaks to our people 'here is home' whilst retaining the memory of our wandering past, it shall be the pin that joins our past to our future and give us the pride to make that future in our image.

If Raz Piye learns to consecrate the river mud with the spirit of the God of Fire before the monument is complete we will immediately use his work to create a shrine to the Gods, but if not we will begin outfitting our most fleet-footed youth to discover the area around us, at least until Raz completes his task.

Only once our shrine is built and we start exploring our surroundings should we begin equipping more warriors. To do so to soon risks dishonouring our ancestors, dishonouring the gods or leaving us blind regarding the lands beyond our home.

 

[Jehoshua]

And to refrain from equipping more warriors leaves our lands completely open to attack from barbarian tribes while the current guarantors of our lands security are off scouting down the river. Now you say a monument speaks to "this is home", but one wonders whether it is not an exercise in personal hubris, some might say it does in light of your contemporaneous decision to spend resources on a celebration to your own ascension.

Nevertheless I am pleased to hear you admit the necessity of a shrine at the soonest possible time. Even if your plans for a monument are an exercise in vanity, in consideration of the practical necessity of a) securing our land followed by b) making our lands more productive for the benefit of the people upon securing auspicious tidings from the gods, and secondly risk in the case you cease construction monument in favour of a shrine prior to completion (as you suggest is possible depending on how quickly our wise man discerns the mystery of mingling earth with fire) gross inefficiency, considering the inevitable decay the delay would bring to the project.

-

ooc: warriors > shrine > worker > various other stuff would be the ideal I should think presuming the research allows for a swift transition. scouts become less useful over time whereas a warrior improves with promotions and upgrades so your scout contingency is possibly suboptimal (dependant on any ruins we find), and at the very least decays in value over the long term. A warrior is a safer bet.

If the ideal doesn't happen than my proposal at the very least more efficient than stopping production mid-stream from monument to a shrine and would enable our warriors, which you have already ordered to scouting, to continue without leaving our city wide open while we juggle two projects (projects presumably followed either by a worker leaving us still vulnerable, or a warrior, which would delay somewhat our development both options being less than ideal. Obviously a third construction project in a row would be absurd as would scouts should this scenario occur).

 

[Magnive]

Amending my orders:

Become a Warrior
Find a Spouse
Meet the Community - Mekan al-Murak Farmlands
Go to Gathering Place

I'm afraid that this means that I may be unable to fulfill my duties as Religious Leader, and I will as such step down if Chief Isthvia desires so.

Also, I'm afraid that this voids my agreement with Tambien from earlier, my apologies.

 

[OnceAKing]

@ Malik Shah

No one was putting down a fellow tribesman. Our contributions toward our civilization's folklore should be evidence as to the intentions of our chief. I never once questioned his impression of our chief I was just reminding him of the actons our Chief took to receive unanimous support for his rule.

And questioning my own piety is so preposterous that I won't dignify a response. There's no need to prove what is already evident.

I see no disagreements among any person here. We all want to honor our gods, we all want the barbarians destroyed and we all want this city to thrive.

 

[Jehoshua]

On the contrary, you without prompting brought up the chiefs piety when the suggestion made no mention of it, and then you casually and without thought dismissed his opinion in such a way that he thought it necessary to make apologies. This quite clearly constitute a slight on the honour of Malik Salim, and a derogation of his stature.

As to your piety, dismissing without even any denial of the fact the obvious truth you act in an unseemly sycophancy towards the chief and its concordant wordliness is unbefitting of one who is supposedly our wise man, the keeper of wisdom for the tribe, and my assessment that this is impious and unspiritual of you, does not render me mistaken. You are the bearer of the traditions of the ancestors, and yet you stoop before the transient administrator of present affairs, show the dignity and humility befitting your stature and you may prove me wrong.

As to why you bring up the matter of policy here when it is completely irrelevant to the core matter at hand, namely your actions towards Malik Salim, for which I note you have not offered contrition to put to rights your slight on his honour, and the way you bear your office, is beyond my comprehension. I suppose it might be an appeal to the chief for support considering my unrelated disagreement with him over whether his monument project is appropriate (seeing as we both agree a shrine is necessary), but that would only be corroborating my point about unseemly worldliness unbefitting one in your position.

 

[filli_noctus]

And to refrain from equipping more warriors leaves our lands completely open to attack from barbarian tribes while the current guarantors of our lands security are off scouting down the river. Now you say a monument speaks to "this is home", but one wonders whether it is not an exercise in personal hubris, some might say it does in light of your contemporaneous decision to spend resources on a celebration to your own ascension.

Nevertheless I am pleased to hear you admit the necessity of a shrine at the soonest possible time. Even if your plans for a monument are an exercise in vanity, in consideration of the practical necessity of a) securing our land followed by b) making our lands more productive for the benefit of the people upon securing auspicious tidings from the gods, and secondly risk in the case you cease construction monument in favour of a shrine prior to completion (as you suggest is possible depending on how quickly our wise man discerns the mystery of mingling earth with fire) gross inefficiency, considering the inevitable decay the delay would bring to the project.

Exercise in vanity?! How dare you? Not only do you besmirch my own honour with your wild accusations but that of our founder, Murak, and our ancestors by claiming this monument in their memory is actually to my glory!

I have never sought glory for myself, only to humbly serve our people and provide guidance where I can. The celebration you say is to mark my ascension is to give thanks for the fertile soils and abundant harvests we have reaped since we settled here.

Equipping more warriors now will only serve to slow our progress as a society when we need to come together to build the foundations on which our grandchildren will build a tribe greater and stronger than we can imagine. I understand the need for security, it was the reason I was chosen as chief, but the danger at present is low. We chose this location because it was far from barbarians. The warriors are going down river because any barbarians - or more civilised people - will be near the river for the water that flows within its banks and by going that way they can deal with the most likely source of threats.

Your proposals would risk our children's prosperity and I will not sacrifice that to counter an illusory threat.

Amending my orders:

Become a Warrior
Find a Spouse
Meet the Community - Mekan al-Murak Farmlands
Go to Gathering Place

I'm afraid that this means that I may be unable to fulfill my duties as Religious Leader, and I will as such step down if Chief Isthvia desires so.

Also, I'm afraid that this voids my agreement with Tambien from earlier, my apologies.

That is disappointing. I will consider alternate candidates.

 

[Jehoshua]

Exercise in vanity?! How dare you? Not only do you besmirch my own honour with your wild accusations but that of our founder, Murak, and our ancestors by claiming this monument in their memory is actually to my glory!

I have never sought glory for myself, only to humbly serve our people and provide guidance where I can. The celebration you say is to mark my ascension is to give thanks for the fertile soils and abundant harvests we have reaped since we settled here.

Equipping more warriors now will only serve to slow our progress as a society when we need to come together to build the foundations on which our grandchildren will build a tribe greater and stronger than we can imagine. I understand the need for security, it was the reason I was chosen as chief, but the danger at present is low. We chose this location because it was far from barbarians. The warriors are going down river because any barbarians - or more civilised people - will be near the river for the water that flows within its banks and by going that way they can deal with the most likely source of threats.

Your proposals would risk our children's prosperity and I will not sacrifice that to counter an illusory threat.

O Chief, how was one to know that this festival you plan was not to your own ascension, when this is in fact the first time you have stated its purpose and its timing coincides with your establishment in power. Indeed likewise this discussion is the first anyone has heard as to the reason for your monument, and as I noted before your decision to fund a festival, meritorious though it is in giving our people succor, goes hand in hand with your civic policy in this matter. As to the question of your vanity, I leave it to the people to judge whether your outrage speaks to me having struck a nerve of truth, or to simple irascibility, likewise with regards to the intent you have given now behind your actions in light of my questioning matches your original mind on the matter. But whatever the case you could have entirely prevented any misconception should there have been one if you had merely stated the purpose of your policies to the people you serve, you did not do so and so any confusion as to the matter rests entirely on your shoulders. Failing to be transparent with your people is by any measure of a ruler something you should correct, and which those who serve you should call out.

Now as to your objection to my position regarding the training of warriors in defence of your own policies. I offer a simple counter-question, how precisely does building a monument which provides no functional purpose serve to build the foundations of our greatness? You previously asserted that it would provide an appropriate memorial to our ancestors, which is most certainly true, but a memorial does not bring in the crops, provide security, or improve the land, nor does it any way serve to bring our people prosperity. Your assertion then that my proposal "risks our childrens prosperity" is self-evidently hysterical and absurd, I have already noted quite clearly how your proposal risks inefficiency and insecurity both (concerns which I note you have not refuted or even denied in the first case), and it is obvious to anyone possessed of reason that if our children's prosperity is your concern that a monument is of even less utility than what I propose, which at least assures the people against the risk of savages. Indeed if prosperity is your concern, one would think prioritising the development of the land through the training of labourers would be imperative in order to increase our resources and support future growth. That you don't support this despite your assertions that you are focussed on making our tribe stronger and greater can only mean that you concur with my thought on the matter that such labourers, left undefended beyond the cities walls would risk in the absence of defending warriors, being captured by barbarian raiders which would I think render my security concerns far from illusionary in your mind. Indeed one most attuned to the inspiration of the gods seem to think it imperative to join the military and sally forth to make known the unknown to defend against our assured enemies, if the sacred medium who speaks to the gods is concerned with barbarians, it seems a clear sign from heaven that I am not mistaken in my assertion that we are not unthreatened.

What is clear in any case is that tour policies simply don't match your rhetoric in this argument o chief. If you are concerned with making our tribe greater and more prosperous, why are you neglecting to enact measures to tangibly increase our greatness, or provide the forces necessary to do so in absolute security.?

-

On another matter however, may the priest you choose be well suited to the task. Propitiation of the divine is always necessary and appropriate, and is absolutely essential for the good of our people. No human power can avail us or bring us prosperity if the land itself withdraws from us its favour.

 

[Et_Absoluti]

Brothers! Look at your selves! We are dividing ourselves! Would the gods want this? We must focus on our people. Do they have enough to eat?Are they safe? Can they better themselves with hard work and intellect? By ensuring these are true is how we serve the gods. I will strive to do so and I advise you all to take heed.

 

[John.Galt]

Orders locked. Expect the update to take a day or two, many of the actions taken require further player input to process.

 

[Tambien]

OOC: shoot, just a second too late. Ah well, still relevant I suppose.

-----

Malik Shah, under the logic you present in your argument we would never errect any monuments at all. No monument to our ancestors or our past will ever produce food or labor for our village, and so by your logic, no effort should ever be wasted on any monument. Your premise is flawed, however. The purpose of a monument has never been, and never will be, to produce. You cannot evaluate the success of a project using criteria which measure qualities that said project was never meant to have.

Why do we construct monuments? Far from being methods of production, monuments are a way to connect to our past and provide remembrance of important events and personages. This is hugely important, for what point would our survival have if our culture itself was destroyed in the maintenance of that life?

In short, let us not allow our desire for material gain lead to the demise of our spiritual and cultural selves. Let us construct a monument.

 

[Et_Absoluti]

I can sympathize with the need for a monument. Look at it from Malik Shah's viewpoint. He thinks that need of security is very important at this point in our peoples development. Do you really believe that he would have us never build a monument?

 

[Silverman6083]

Let us all ask ourselves who are we, who is anybody to question the most wise chief, favored of the Fire God? Especially a newcomer in this tribe, not even among his trusted, struts among us and lectures us of how our chief betrays us, and how is he so more the wiser. How could anyone take this man seriously?