Civilization elimination thread

It is somewhat peculiar that one of the very strongest civs in the game (Arabia) gets eliminated by someone who doesn't trade away resources.


Some people think it's "cheap" and borderline "cheating" to use a mechanic the developers very obviously intended to be used in the game and at no point considered "broken". I still consider Arabia top 3 and probably top 1 for single player, the combination of the strongest economy in the game, virtually unlimited happiness, camel archers which are imo better than keshiks (often rated the top UU in the game) and a UA which almost guarantees a large modern navy/army later on, is just amazing at even the highest difficulty levels. What I find funny and ironic is that those who claim trading luxuries for gold is 'cheap', have no problem farming barb camps for experience/gold, bribing AI's to DOW on eachother, stealing workers from CS's, or outmanoevuring a still pretty sub-par AI militarily.. imagine that, playing the game and making use of all of the options and strategies available in it.
 
lol, Arabia's not that special. They get +1 gold from trade routes, that's like a handful of extra gold. Not really much. Although I do love that unique Market they have. Double Oil sounds nice, but it's not really a dealbreaker. Some City States carry a crap ton of it, and with the extra gold Arabia gets, allying with these City States will give you more than enough. And I don't think Camel Archer's are that special, either. They get no defensive bonuses and they're in an era when cavalry becomes obsolete.

Personally, I'd prefer Russia's double iron/horse/uranium (which is much more rarer than oil) and their production bonuses.


Thats pretty much how I feel I'd rank arabia in the bottom 10 because there so meh compared to all the other civs. i mean there UA benefits from going wide with liberty there UB benefits from trading and pacifying your people with commerce and there UU benefits from massive amounts of them. also there UU can be achieved with Keshiks which are so much better. all in all they are a bottom ten. no offence to any one who loves them.
 
Some people think it's "cheap" and borderline "cheating" to use a mechanic the developers very obviously intended to be used in the game and at no point considered "broken". I still consider Arabia top 3 and probably top 1 for single player, the combination of the strongest economy in the game, virtually unlimited happiness, camel archers which are imo better than keshiks (often rated the top UU in the game) and a UA which almost guarantees a large modern navy/army later on, is just amazing at even the highest difficulty levels. What I find funny and ironic is that those who claim trading luxuries for gold is 'cheap', have no problem farming barb camps for experience/gold, bribing AI's to DOW on eachother, stealing workers from CS's, or outmanoevuring a still pretty sub-par AI militarily.. imagine that, playing the game and making use of all of the options and strategies available in it.

Ironically i do none of those things. I also don't think it is cheap I just always play as a very Isolationist, mercantilism, protectionism. it just how i play like it or not.
 
Thats pretty much how I feel I'd rank arabia in the bottom 10 because there so meh compared to all the other civs. i mean there UA benefits from going wide with liberty there UB benefits from trading and pacifying your people with commerce and there UU benefits from massive amounts of them. also there UU can be achieved with Keshiks which are so much better. all in all they are a bottom ten. no offence to any one who loves them.

How exactly are keshiks 'so much better'? Sounds like you've never actually played with camel archers, or at least not since G&K. If you had you'd see that in a lot of ways they're actually better. I don't play Arabia and they are far from my 'favourite' civ, but I do recognize their inherent strengths, so don't take my comments as those of a zealot. I understand some people might not enjoy trading, I only really got into it lately myself, but I think it's unfair to start labelling those who do trade as being 'cheap' somehow. Does taking gold from the AI for luxuries hurt the AI? Probably not, if anything it probably helps them, they have excess gold all the time and extra happiness just means more golden ages for them, they are essentially buying themselves golden ages. Many civs have UBs or UA's which provide extra gold throughout the game, often just as a tacked-on 'bonus', like the paper maker, or incan improvement maintenance, trade on the other hand is something which is dependent on other civs willingness to buy your goods, so it requires a *little* bit of effort on the human part, as opposed to the aforementioned civs and their more passive-bonuses.

Ironically i do none of those things. I also don't think it is cheap I just always play as a very Isolationist, mercantilism, protectionism. it just how i play like it or not.

Fair enough.
 
Babylon 11
China 14 (+1)
Inca 17
Korea 15 (-2)

China: I think the number 1 Civ should be a domination Civ... we wouldn't have so many units if Civ wasn't fundamentally about war.

Korea: I hate nerds and turtles. I hate Donatello.
 
Babylon 12
China 12
Inca 17
Korea 15

Well, four civs I never play and have no interest in playing due to boringness factor.. so who to vote for..

I'll give my up vote to Babylon, I kind of like the fact they are a one-trick pony, that's kind of cool, science is their game and they don't have much of anything else going for them, but boy are they great at what they do, I could see some fun kind of games with them, but I'll still probably never play them, I don't want to fight wars with units an era ahead of my opponents, I guess that's my own idea of something that's "cheap", but not really, I just enjoy the military aspects of the game and think it would become way too easy to dominate with a tech lead.

Downvote China - On paper they look good but when I play them I really find myself extemely bored, I don't really like chokonus; while they are a solid unit having an army of double-shooting crossbowmen lacks a lot of 'flavour' and removes alot of fun for me. Paper maker is pretty boring. UA is okay only because I love great general citadel pushes deep into enemy territory, the combat bonus though seems really insignificant and I'm not sure who got the idea of making Japan and China extreme-military civs anyway, I don't really think of either of those societies as such, not anymore than European at least.
 
Babylon 11
China 10 (-2)
Inca 18 (+1)
Korea 15

China: don't like civs with only bonuses for warmongering. Worst civ out of these 4.
Inca: Very versatile as long as you have hills & mountains around.
 
Babylon 12 (+1)
China 8 (-2)
Inca 18
Korea 15

Im more of a lurker here, so that is why this is my first vote here. I upvoted Babylon because of the science aspect of their civ, and in my limited experience I find it better than Korea. I down voted China because Im not a fan of the UA as compared to the rest of the field. The UU is great but is overshadowed in my mind by the UA.

On a side note, this thread finally got me to purchase the Inca DLC. Im currently playing my first game with them and Im loving what Im seeing so far. Im only 50 turns or so into them or I may have upvoted them.
 
How exactly are keshiks 'so much better'? Sounds like you've never actually played with camel archers, or at least not since G&K. If you had you'd see that in a lot of ways they're actually better. I don't play Arabia and they are far from my 'favourite' civ, but I do recognize their inherent strengths, so don't take my comments as those of a zealot. I understand some people might not enjoy trading, I only really got into it lately myself, but I think it's unfair to start labelling those who do trade as being 'cheap' somehow. Does taking gold from the AI for luxuries hurt the AI? Probably not, if anything it probably helps them, they have excess gold all the time and extra happiness just means more golden ages for them, they are essentially buying themselves golden ages. Many civs have UBs or UA's which provide extra gold throughout the game, often just as a tacked-on 'bonus', like the paper maker, or incan improvement maintenance, trade on the other hand is something which is dependent on other civs willingness to buy your goods, so it requires a *little* bit of effort on the human part, as opposed to the aforementioned civs and their more passive-bonuses.Fair enough.

In my opinion at least great generals one and quick study plus the extra move trump the higher strength of the camel archer as my tactics rely on hit and run attacks.
 
Babylon 12
China 12
Inca 17
Korea 15

Well, four civs I never play and have no interest in playing due to boringness factor.. so who to vote for..

I'll give my up vote to Babylon, I kind of like the fact they are a one-trick pony, that's kind of cool, science is their game and they don't have much of anything else going for them, but boy are they great at what they do, I could see some fun kind of games with them, but I'll still probably never play them, I don't want to fight wars with units an era ahead of my opponents, I guess that's my own idea of something that's "cheap", but not really, I just enjoy the military aspects of the game and think it would become way too easy to dominate with a tech lead.

Downvote China - On paper they look good but when I play them I really find myself extemely bored, I don't really like chokonus; while they are a solid unit having an army of double-shooting crossbowmen lacks a lot of 'flavour' and removes alot of fun for me. Paper maker is pretty boring. UA is okay only because I love great general citadel pushes deep into enemy territory, the combat bonus though seems really insignificant and I'm not sure who got the idea of making Japan and China extreme-military civs anyway, I don't really think of either of those societies as such, not anymore than European at least.

Agreed. I always think China's UA is more something that fits Germany. I am a historian, And for every Chinese general i can think of i can probably name a dozen German ones.
 
i would rather have germanys power to be 50%+ experience gained from combat
 
Babylon 13
China 9 (+1)
Inca 18
Korea 13 (-2)

I find China boring, but...it's the only one left that adds to my game.

Korea has tech, which is useful, but wonders get harder to get at higher levels, and the turtle ship could restrict your tech progress by limiting the number of RA partners you find early, unless you're on Pangea.
 
Agreed. I always think China's UA is more something that fits Germany. I am a historian, And for every Chinese general i can think of i can probably name a dozen German ones.

Yeah indeed, I mean China was so innovative in so many different spheres it's unfortunate to have them limited as a 'military civ' just because Sun Tzu wrote a famous and influential book. Something to acknowledge their abilities in government and administration might have been more flavourful. I don't mind Bushido for Japan so much, but two uu's sort of sucks for them, better would have been a forge replacement or something.
 
In my opinion at least great generals one and quick study plus the extra move trump the higher strength of the camel archer as my tactics rely on hit and run attacks.


I find ever since camel archers got the extra movement after G&K they are extremely capable hit and runners, cheaper to produce and stronger than keshiks. I play mostly epic game speed so maybe that's why I don't care as much about quick study or great generals 1, lots of time to generate the promos and gg's.
 
Japan should have the ninja unit, lol. Replacing... spies. 10-20% increase in steal rate.
 
Babylon 13
China 7
Inca 19
Korea 13

I can't believe I just downvoted China. Not that they are my favorite (all my favorites died a long time ago in this this thread), just that they are so solid. But, yeah, this is the top 4, so all the Civs were bound to be good, and China is the odd man out. Babylon, Korea, and Inca games I would really be looking forward to. China would just be nodding of the head.

Inca is the last fave of mine left, so up they go. I love that, of all civs, I have to put the most thought into city placement with them (UI), and choosing city spots is one of my favorite joys in the game.
 
Babylon 14
China 5
Inca 19
Korea 13

I like all the civs here but think babylon's science boost beats out any other ability left.

I like China I just think their main reason for so much appreciation is for their CKN.
 
+1, the only victory that isn't easy for Babylon is Culture victory.

It's not inflexibility in victory conditions that makes Babylon dull, it's inflexibility in the playstyle you're forced to use regardless of which VC you go for. Science and diplo require the same tech path; Domination requires the same tech path long enough to seal your science advantage and maximise GS spawns before taking aggressive techs. And then warfare just becomes dull because you outtech everyone else so far that it's just a matter of wading through inferior units. After all, what makes the game enjoyable is the way it plays on the way to victory, not your specific victory condition. A civ that can take any of two (marginally three) victory conditions but has only one way to get there is much less engaging than a civ that might, say, be optimised for fewer victory types but has more leeway to vary its strategy for achieving that victory. The example given even demonstrates that a strategy that forgoes going for early Education doesn't work past King.

Some people think it's "cheap" and borderline "cheating" to use a mechanic the developers very obviously intended to be used in the game and at no point considered "broken".

No, it's neither broken nor cheating. Just lazy, uninteresting and ultimately suboptimal, as well as being far more situational in its application than top-tier civs. No civ that requires the qualifier "in single player", or that doesn't work well on smaller maps, deserves top tier status Arabia in some regards is like Babylon in vanilla, which revolved around using the GSes spawned to slingshot for specific techs at specific game stages - favoured because it could exploit one particular strategy very well. Arabia is not a strong economic civ; 240 gold per lux every 30 turns in the early-mid game is not going to match the gold-farming of some other civs long-since departed. As I noted earlier, the strength lies in having specific amounts of gold when you need it for highly specific purchases - as with vanilla Babylon relying on having a GS when it needs it to beeline for a very specific tech (and look how many people were crying that Babylon had been "nerfed" as soon as this became impossible). Arabia is a civ that seems powerful because it can perform a specific strategy well; unlike Babylon, however, it is a civ that is not particularly powerful more generally.

As for what the developers intended, what they likely intended was for the Bazaar to allow Arabia to maximise happiness by trading luxes for other luxes, which fits the theme of a bazaar well. As I've noted before, the AI is badly-programmed to use its gold, and the developers do seem to have made efforts to improve it in this regard which suggests that Askia sitting on 10,000 gold at a time is not intentional. Certainly it would be bizarre if the developers really had intended that the gold bonuses given to the AI at higher levels should be used to make the game progressively easier for the human player, which is the result of lux-for-gold trades against an AI which gets bigger and bigger gold bonuses but never spends any more. Yes, they undoubtedly intended lux-for-gold trades to be viable, or they wouldn't have coded the option, but it seems unlikely they intended that the AI would have spare gold to trade so often that a player could reliably farm it for half the game. Even if they did, as above, this is bad programming.

I still consider Arabia top 3 and probably top 1 for single player, the combination of the strongest economy in the game

Not correct - see above. You are not going to be using Arabia to spam-buy units or maintain a large army with its gpt, for instance, to rushbuy courthouses or research labs en masse, to shore up alliance with half the city-states on the map, or whatever, at least not on the strength of its UA without augmentation from Tithe, Macchu Picchu and other effects that let any civ do the same thing. Persia can do that; Songhai can do that. In contrast Arabia gets moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums that it needs to spend carefully to be effective.

virtually unlimited happiness

Much less of an issue post-G&K, and it's very much an either-or with Arabia. You have limited luxuries the other civs don't have, and limited civs with which to trade, as well as the gold boost you get for it already being fairly moderate, without lux-for-lux trading.

camel archers which are imo better than keshiks (often rated the top UU in the game)

This is a very bad way of looking at it. The Keshik belongs to a warmonger civ; the camel archer does not. UUs only make sense in context, not in isolation. The Camel Archer as an Arabian UU is much less useful than the Keshik as a Mongol UU or the Cho-Ko-Nu as a Chinese UU. All the moreso because, to maximise its trade returns, Arabia needs to remain peaceful with the civs that don't have the luxuries it can offer. In isolation the Camel Archer is a great UU, but in the context of Arabia as a civ, it doesn't do a lot to push them up the ranking.

and a UA which almost guarantees a large modern navy/army later on

At exactly the time you can't afford one because your lux-for-gold trades have either run out or are generating too little gold to stimulate your economy...

, is just amazing at even the highest difficulty levels. What I find funny and ironic is that those who claim trading luxuries for gold is 'cheap', have no problem farming barb camps for experience/gold, bribing AI's to DOW on eachother, stealing workers from CS's, or outmanoevuring a still pretty sub-par AI militarily.. imagine that, playing the game and making use of all of the options and strategies available in it.

Well, of those I only do the former as Songhai (there's a cap on the experience you can get from barbs) and the second only if they don't want much (which usually requires set-up of some form in order to make them dislike the AI you want them to declare war against). But you'll note three clear differences:

1. "making use of all of the options and strategies available" is a far cry from making use of a grand total of one of them.
2. Every one of these requires some degree of effort, and trade-off - units farming barbarians or bullying CSes aren't somewhere they may be more useful, and are costing you maintenance into the bargain; AI bribery requires an AI willing to go to war with another as above; outmanoeuvring the AI again still requires an army. None is a case of being given a free resource you can just give away for no penalty.
3. None of these (except outmanoeuvring the AI) is the basis of a viable game-long strategy. Arabia revolves around using a single technique that requires little effort and exploits badly-programmed AI gold-hoarding as the entire basis for its high place in the list. If you want to compare this with farming gold from barbs as the basis of a strategy, fine - in that case Arabia deserves to rank as high as the Songhai. Except of course that even Songhai doesn't rely on farming barb camps indefinitely, although it can use them to get a strong headstart.
 
Babylon 12
China 5
Inca 20
Korea 13

Inca for all the reasons I've said throughout this thread.

Dropped Babs because I prefer to play the other civs over them. I don't have fun when I play as them.
 
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