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Civilization elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Bakspatel, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    well, it's dull for the play style YOU are forced into. for me, im not forced into it. yeah, diplo and sci vics are the same but that's the fault of the game design that made diplo a rush to a late tech. (diplo needs a total rework, imo.) but warmongering doesnt require mass GS exploitation, well, it doesnt for me anyway. when rushing to globalization or the future era, Babs nets me 14-15 GS. when i warmonger its usually half that. 7 or 8, 5 of which are settled and the others used to pop for timely gains. and it doesnt involve freedom finisher. i dont have to out-tech the others in a huge way. even when i get to on par with them i can shut down advancement for unit production/war for about 20-30 turns to focus on a civ comparable to my strengths, saving the easier ones for later. my tactics with equal units is better than an AIs with equal units that outnumber me. the only thing to ruin some of that for me is terrain.

    and honestly, what makes the game fun is different for a lot of people. some dont care about any victory at all and just love building cities. some hate warfare and love peaceful vics and vice versa. the problem might be that you only see one way to get there where others see more than that.
     
  2. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    Babylon 13
    China 3
    Inca 20
    Korea 13

    GS popping got really nerfed in their abuse in GnK, but they are much more fun strategically now. you dont get a flat free tech anymore and you cant pop 10 in one turn either but if you want to do the math you can pop one to save 15 turn on tech that takes 22 turns to finish. you can time entry into new eras or complete a lower tech for free that you didnt want to waste turns on. the new strategies made the same vic types more interesting.

    china is a great civ and i think the GG benefit is under-appreciated but compared to the rest im ready to see them exit. they are versatile and CKNs are fun but its also easy to lose focus with them.
     
  3. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Nicely said and my view as well.

    I was encouraged to see the upvotes for China but then they fell again. :(
     
  4. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Babylon 13
    China 1
    Inca 20
    Korea 15

    For the sake of argument, I'll concede that Korea may ultimately lose to Babylon in the pure tech race. But if so the difference is sufficiently minimal that it's kept the argument raging here for a couple of weeks. And in exchange for (possibly) slightly reduced science output, Korea gains a great deal more flexibility in both playstyle and victory options, and two UUs which are both very strong and uniquely characterful, as both differ substantially from the units they replace. Also, they have one of my favourite colour schemes, although I do wonder why they didn't go for blue-on-red (red seems to be the dominant colour on the Korean icon), as the existing scheme is identical to the Khmer one from Civ IV and may argue against that civ making a comeback in DLC.

    China, as others have mentioned, simply doesn't belong here any more. It's earned its place as the favoured warmonger civ, but it is still 'just' a warmonger civ. Which, I agree with others here, is a shame since it's not really something China is particularly well-known for outside The Art of War. China should indeed get bonuses for such things as administration, population size, or isolationism, not warfare.
     
  5. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Believe it or not, you can win other ways with China. The CKN gives you the space and puppets for gold and culture for the later game, along with the early boost from Paper.
     
  6. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    i think making it to the top 4 is a pretty nice success. remember, this isnt a thread about who is the most powerful civ, but who you like the most (and certainly people like the most powerful the most, relatively speaking). and just reading people's reasoning is more fun than the actually list, imo. ive learned a bit about some civs that i also never knew.

    but the death knell to Arabia was really perplexing. rationally i cant find a good argument for why they think trading is cheap, but to each their own i guess. the randomness of the string of downvotes or upvotes has produced some crazy swings and that arabia exit was quite surprising.
     
  7. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    Babylon 13
    China 1
    Inca 20
    Korea 14

    jumped from 13 to 15 with an upvote, corrected now.
     
  8. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    No offense but you make my long-winded posts look like scribbles in the margin, which is to say.. I don't have the energy to read all of that. I will just briefly reply to one comment:

    "Not correct - see above. You are not going to be using Arabia to spam-buy units or maintain a large army with its gpt, for instance, to rushbuy courthouses or research labs en masse, to shore up alliance with half the city-states on the map, or whatever, at least not on the strength of its UA without augmentation from Tithe, Macchu Picchu and other effects that let any civ do the same thing. Persia can do that; Songhai can do that. In contrast Arabia gets moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums that it needs to spend carefully to be effective."

    Arguing that Arabia is not the top gold-producing civ on a standard map, Emperor difficulty or above is probably not something you want to try to do; you can game the argument any way you like to 'prove' something, but the point remains that Arabia is one of the absolute best gold-obtaining civs in this game, at least top 3 if not 1. You should really play them some time and get some practice with selling luxuries and funnelling that money effectively, it's only bland when you are just selling blindly to whoever comes around asking for a trade. There's a whole layer of depth to the mechanic which you forego to mention, either through ignorance of its existence or in order to win a point in an online debate. I have never gotten "moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums" with Arabia and I don't expand particularly either. I think it's a conservative statement to say that an Arabia player can make up to 1500 gold every 30 turns - minimum, that's the equivalent of 50 gold per turn, with four cities. Think I'm exaggerating? Load up a Pangaea standard map, build four cities, take at least tradition opener to grab loads of land and see how many lux you have available to trade by the time bazaars come around. Even better, since you're trading with everyone if anyone DOW's on you, you get your luxury back to trade again after peace, without intentionally doing the trade-war 'cheat' (unless you're selling a lux as you notice the enemy marching towards you before they've declared, something I don't do).
     
  9. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    I started out thinking very little of Iroquois until this thread, I've since gained a new respect for them, one of those civs which appear really underwhelming but put in the right hands become really amazing. I am confused with why people would prefer playing with the 'strongest civs' however.. so much fun to play a game as the Celts, or Germany, or Polynesia, sure they might not be the 'strongest' but honestly I find all three of those more interesting and engaging to play than the current list of 'well-rounded civs'.

    Now if only people could become motivated to take part in the "strongest UU' thread, right now the imbalance created by lack of voters is creating interesting results.
     
  10. cman2010

    cman2010 King

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    Babylon 13
    China 1
    Inca 18
    Korea 15


    Korea rocks , I dont think inca is that great
     
  11. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    That image is hilarious!
     
  12. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    the UU and religious belief threads are just kind of too big for me. im not participating in them because im not fully familiar with all of them to really justify some votes. since all the UUs are warmonger UUs i cant really speak to my favorites since i havent played them all enough.
     
  13. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    all three of those leaders are wearing 'turbans'
     
  14. duhu

    duhu Chieftain

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    Kesh:
    + 2 movement
    + Promotions at double rate
    + Great Generals earned at double rate
    - Cost: 165
    - 15 Strength
    - 16 Ranged Strength

    vs.

    Camel Archer:
    + Cost: 120
    + 17 Strength
    + 21 Ranged strength


    I can see where your coming from with the CA. But I still like the Kesh more. I like the faster promotions, more Generals, and the additional movement (+2 is A LOT for a single unit). The faster promotions can close the gap between strength with the CA, or give them a quick heal, whereas CA cannot do so as quickly or as often.

    EDIT: Actually, does anyone know if the Kesh get +3 movement in total? The Mongol ua gives all mounts +1, so I'm wondering if it stacks.
     
  15. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    The Camel Archer is just one movement point less than the Keshik.
     
  16. Awsome Sause

    Awsome Sause Chieftain

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    Ya but the mongols get +1 movement from there UA so it is effectively 2.


    Babylon 11
    China 1
    Inca 19
    Korea 15

    Inca: A well rounded Civ, you save quite a bit of money from roads, are strong on the attack thanks to the hill movement and can have nice tiles thanks to there UI. I also may be in the minority on this one but i like singers and there promotion carries over.

    Babylon: Great Civ but there UU expires to fast and there UB is OK. I like there UA but IMO i generate more science with Korea in the long run.
     
  17. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    Ah, I didn't realize they had increased the base movement rate of the Keshik. Also interestingly they matched the hammer cost of camel archers and keshiks, they are both now 120. 21 ranged attack vs 16 though is pretty significant, I'll still take that over extra movement which doesn't provide any huge advantage over the more than adequate 4 the camel archer gets. They're pretty evenly matched though all things considered imo.
     
  18. kamikazees

    kamikazees Warlord

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    Babylon 11
    China 2
    Inca 17
    Korea 15

    China: The next vote may overrule mine, but when heads need to roll China is the civ to do it.

    Inca: So you can cross mountains? Great, but then your units run away... :lol:
     
  19. duhu

    duhu Chieftain

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    Babylon 12
    China 2
    Inca 15
    Korea 15

    Inca overrated, Babylon scientists are great.
     
  20. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Are posts #1250 and #1259 really valid? Post #1250 gives no reason and Post #1259 only gives a reason for the up vote.

    Babylon 10
    China 3
    Inca 15
    Korea 15

    I've voted negative for China in the past, but I think that it's actually the most interesting of the remaining civilizations. The UB encourages play toward Science and Gold, which makes them great for a Science victory. Or, you can use the extra GGs to go for Conquest. Plus, the colors are nice.

    Babylon is pretty much just a one-trick pony with such a great focus on Science that it's almost silly to go for any other victory type. Boring!
     

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