Civilization elimination thread

It's not inflexibility in victory conditions that makes Babylon dull, it's inflexibility in the playstyle you're forced to use regardless of which VC you go for. Science and diplo require the same tech path; Domination requires the same tech path long enough to seal your science advantage and maximise GS spawns before taking aggressive techs. And then warfare just becomes dull because you outtech everyone else so far that it's just a matter of wading through inferior units. After all, what makes the game enjoyable is the way it plays on the way to victory, not your specific victory condition. A civ that can take any of two (marginally three) victory conditions but has only one way to get there is much less engaging than a civ that might, say, be optimised for fewer victory types but has more leeway to vary its strategy for achieving that victory. The example given even demonstrates that a strategy that forgoes going for early Education doesn't work past King.

well, it's dull for the play style YOU are forced into. for me, im not forced into it. yeah, diplo and sci vics are the same but that's the fault of the game design that made diplo a rush to a late tech. (diplo needs a total rework, imo.) but warmongering doesnt require mass GS exploitation, well, it doesnt for me anyway. when rushing to globalization or the future era, Babs nets me 14-15 GS. when i warmonger its usually half that. 7 or 8, 5 of which are settled and the others used to pop for timely gains. and it doesnt involve freedom finisher. i dont have to out-tech the others in a huge way. even when i get to on par with them i can shut down advancement for unit production/war for about 20-30 turns to focus on a civ comparable to my strengths, saving the easier ones for later. my tactics with equal units is better than an AIs with equal units that outnumber me. the only thing to ruin some of that for me is terrain.

and honestly, what makes the game fun is different for a lot of people. some dont care about any victory at all and just love building cities. some hate warfare and love peaceful vics and vice versa. the problem might be that you only see one way to get there where others see more than that.
 
Babylon 13
China 3
Inca 20
Korea 13

GS popping got really nerfed in their abuse in GnK, but they are much more fun strategically now. you dont get a flat free tech anymore and you cant pop 10 in one turn either but if you want to do the math you can pop one to save 15 turn on tech that takes 22 turns to finish. you can time entry into new eras or complete a lower tech for free that you didnt want to waste turns on. the new strategies made the same vic types more interesting.

china is a great civ and i think the GG benefit is under-appreciated but compared to the rest im ready to see them exit. they are versatile and CKNs are fun but its also easy to lose focus with them.
 
Some people think it's "cheap" and borderline "cheating" to use a mechanic the developers very obviously intended to be used in the game and at no point considered "broken". I still consider Arabia top 3 and probably top 1 for single player, the combination of the strongest economy in the game, virtually unlimited happiness, camel archers which are imo better than keshiks (often rated the top UU in the game) and a UA which almost guarantees a large modern navy/army later on, is just amazing at even the highest difficulty levels. What I find funny and ironic is that those who claim trading luxuries for gold is 'cheap', have no problem farming barb camps for experience/gold, bribing AI's to DOW on eachother, stealing workers from CS's, or outmanoevuring a still pretty sub-par AI militarily.. imagine that, playing the game and making use of all of the options and strategies available in it.

Nicely said and my view as well.

I was encouraged to see the upvotes for China but then they fell again. :(
 
Babylon 13
China 1
Inca 20
Korea 15

For the sake of argument, I'll concede that Korea may ultimately lose to Babylon in the pure tech race. But if so the difference is sufficiently minimal that it's kept the argument raging here for a couple of weeks. And in exchange for (possibly) slightly reduced science output, Korea gains a great deal more flexibility in both playstyle and victory options, and two UUs which are both very strong and uniquely characterful, as both differ substantially from the units they replace. Also, they have one of my favourite colour schemes, although I do wonder why they didn't go for blue-on-red (red seems to be the dominant colour on the Korean icon), as the existing scheme is identical to the Khmer one from Civ IV and may argue against that civ making a comeback in DLC.

China, as others have mentioned, simply doesn't belong here any more. It's earned its place as the favoured warmonger civ, but it is still 'just' a warmonger civ. Which, I agree with others here, is a shame since it's not really something China is particularly well-known for outside The Art of War. China should indeed get bonuses for such things as administration, population size, or isolationism, not warfare.
 
Believe it or not, you can win other ways with China. The CKN gives you the space and puppets for gold and culture for the later game, along with the early boost from Paper.
 
i think making it to the top 4 is a pretty nice success. remember, this isnt a thread about who is the most powerful civ, but who you like the most (and certainly people like the most powerful the most, relatively speaking). and just reading people's reasoning is more fun than the actually list, imo. ive learned a bit about some civs that i also never knew.

but the death knell to Arabia was really perplexing. rationally i cant find a good argument for why they think trading is cheap, but to each their own i guess. the randomness of the string of downvotes or upvotes has produced some crazy swings and that arabia exit was quite surprising.
 
It's not inflexibility in victory conditions that makes Babylon dull, it's inflexibility in the playstyle you're forced to use regardless of which VC you go for. Science and diplo require the same tech path; Domination requires the same tech path long enough to seal your science advantage and maximise GS spawns before taking aggressive techs. And then warfare just becomes dull because you outtech everyone else so far that it's just a matter of wading through inferior units. After all, what makes the game enjoyable is the way it plays on the way to victory, not your specific victory condition. A civ that can take any of two (marginally three) victory conditions but has only one way to get there is much less engaging than a civ that might, say, be optimised for fewer victory types but has more leeway to vary its strategy for achieving that victory. The example given even demonstrates that a strategy that forgoes going for early Education doesn't work past King.



No, it's neither broken nor cheating. Just lazy, uninteresting and ultimately suboptimal, as well as being far more situational in its application than top-tier civs. No civ that requires the qualifier "in single player", or that doesn't work well on smaller maps, deserves top tier status Arabia in some regards is like Babylon in vanilla, which revolved around using the GSes spawned to slingshot for specific techs at specific game stages - favoured because it could exploit one particular strategy very well. Arabia is not a strong economic civ; 240 gold per lux every 30 turns in the early-mid game is not going to match the gold-farming of some other civs long-since departed. As I noted earlier, the strength lies in having specific amounts of gold when you need it for highly specific purchases - as with vanilla Babylon relying on having a GS when it needs it to beeline for a very specific tech (and look how many people were crying that Babylon had been "nerfed" as soon as this became impossible). Arabia is a civ that seems powerful because it can perform a specific strategy well; unlike Babylon, however, it is a civ that is not particularly powerful more generally.

As for what the developers intended, what they likely intended was for the Bazaar to allow Arabia to maximise happiness by trading luxes for other luxes, which fits the theme of a bazaar well. As I've noted before, the AI is badly-programmed to use its gold, and the developers do seem to have made efforts to improve it in this regard which suggests that Askia sitting on 10,000 gold at a time is not intentional. Certainly it would be bizarre if the developers really had intended that the gold bonuses given to the AI at higher levels should be used to make the game progressively easier for the human player, which is the result of lux-for-gold trades against an AI which gets bigger and bigger gold bonuses but never spends any more. Yes, they undoubtedly intended lux-for-gold trades to be viable, or they wouldn't have coded the option, but it seems unlikely they intended that the AI would have spare gold to trade so often that a player could reliably farm it for half the game. Even if they did, as above, this is bad programming.



Not correct - see above. You are not going to be using Arabia to spam-buy units or maintain a large army with its gpt, for instance, to rushbuy courthouses or research labs en masse, to shore up alliance with half the city-states on the map, or whatever, at least not on the strength of its UA without augmentation from Tithe, Macchu Picchu and other effects that let any civ do the same thing. Persia can do that; Songhai can do that. In contrast Arabia gets moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums that it needs to spend carefully to be effective.



Much less of an issue post-G&K, and it's very much an either-or with Arabia. You have limited luxuries the other civs don't have, and limited civs with which to trade, as well as the gold boost you get for it already being fairly moderate, without lux-for-lux trading.



This is a very bad way of looking at it. The Keshik belongs to a warmonger civ; the camel archer does not. UUs only make sense in context, not in isolation. The Camel Archer as an Arabian UU is much less useful than the Keshik as a Mongol UU or the Cho-Ko-Nu as a Chinese UU. All the moreso because, to maximise its trade returns, Arabia needs to remain peaceful with the civs that don't have the luxuries it can offer. In isolation the Camel Archer is a great UU, but in the context of Arabia as a civ, it doesn't do a lot to push them up the ranking.



At exactly the time you can't afford one because your lux-for-gold trades have either run out or are generating too little gold to stimulate your economy...



Well, of those I only do the former as Songhai (there's a cap on the experience you can get from barbs) and the second only if they don't want much (which usually requires set-up of some form in order to make them dislike the AI you want them to declare war against). But you'll note three clear differences:

1. "making use of all of the options and strategies available" is a far cry from making use of a grand total of one of them.
2. Every one of these requires some degree of effort, and trade-off - units farming barbarians or bullying CSes aren't somewhere they may be more useful, and are costing you maintenance into the bargain; AI bribery requires an AI willing to go to war with another as above; outmanoeuvring the AI again still requires an army. None is a case of being given a free resource you can just give away for no penalty.
3. None of these (except outmanoeuvring the AI) is the basis of a viable game-long strategy. Arabia revolves around using a single technique that requires little effort and exploits badly-programmed AI gold-hoarding as the entire basis for its high place in the list. If you want to compare this with farming gold from barbs as the basis of a strategy, fine - in that case Arabia deserves to rank as high as the Songhai. Except of course that even Songhai doesn't rely on farming barb camps indefinitely, although it can use them to get a strong headstart.

No offense but you make my long-winded posts look like scribbles in the margin, which is to say.. I don't have the energy to read all of that. I will just briefly reply to one comment:

"Not correct - see above. You are not going to be using Arabia to spam-buy units or maintain a large army with its gpt, for instance, to rushbuy courthouses or research labs en masse, to shore up alliance with half the city-states on the map, or whatever, at least not on the strength of its UA without augmentation from Tithe, Macchu Picchu and other effects that let any civ do the same thing. Persia can do that; Songhai can do that. In contrast Arabia gets moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums that it needs to spend carefully to be effective."

Arguing that Arabia is not the top gold-producing civ on a standard map, Emperor difficulty or above is probably not something you want to try to do; you can game the argument any way you like to 'prove' something, but the point remains that Arabia is one of the absolute best gold-obtaining civs in this game, at least top 3 if not 1. You should really play them some time and get some practice with selling luxuries and funnelling that money effectively, it's only bland when you are just selling blindly to whoever comes around asking for a trade. There's a whole layer of depth to the mechanic which you forego to mention, either through ignorance of its existence or in order to win a point in an online debate. I have never gotten "moderate amounts of gold as quick lump sums" with Arabia and I don't expand particularly either. I think it's a conservative statement to say that an Arabia player can make up to 1500 gold every 30 turns - minimum, that's the equivalent of 50 gold per turn, with four cities. Think I'm exaggerating? Load up a Pangaea standard map, build four cities, take at least tradition opener to grab loads of land and see how many lux you have available to trade by the time bazaars come around. Even better, since you're trading with everyone if anyone DOW's on you, you get your luxury back to trade again after peace, without intentionally doing the trade-war 'cheat' (unless you're selling a lux as you notice the enemy marching towards you before they've declared, something I don't do).
 
i think making it to the top 4 is a pretty nice success. remember, this isnt a thread about who is the most powerful civ, but who you like the most (and certainly people like the most powerful the most, relatively speaking). and just reading people's reasoning is more fun than the actually list, imo. ive learned a bit about some civs that i also never knew.

but the death knell to Arabia was really perplexing. rationally i cant find a good argument for why they think trading is cheap, but to each their own i guess. the randomness of the string of downvotes or upvotes has produced some crazy swings and that arabia exit was quite surprising.

I started out thinking very little of Iroquois until this thread, I've since gained a new respect for them, one of those civs which appear really underwhelming but put in the right hands become really amazing. I am confused with why people would prefer playing with the 'strongest civs' however.. so much fun to play a game as the Celts, or Germany, or Polynesia, sure they might not be the 'strongest' but honestly I find all three of those more interesting and engaging to play than the current list of 'well-rounded civs'.

Now if only people could become motivated to take part in the "strongest UU' thread, right now the imbalance created by lack of voters is creating interesting results.
 
Babylon 13
China 1
Inca 18
Korea 15


Korea rocks , I dont think inca is that great
 
Now if only people could become motivated to take part in the "strongest UU' thread, right now the imbalance created by lack of voters is creating interesting results.

the UU and religious belief threads are just kind of too big for me. im not participating in them because im not fully familiar with all of them to really justify some votes. since all the UUs are warmonger UUs i cant really speak to my favorites since i havent played them all enough.
 
How exactly are keshiks 'so much better'? Sounds like you've never actually played with camel archers, or at least not since G&K. If you had you'd see that in a lot of ways they're actually better.
Kesh:
+ 2 movement
+ Promotions at double rate
+ Great Generals earned at double rate
- Cost: 165
- 15 Strength
- 16 Ranged Strength

vs.

Camel Archer:
+ Cost: 120
+ 17 Strength
+ 21 Ranged strength


I can see where your coming from with the CA. But I still like the Kesh more. I like the faster promotions, more Generals, and the additional movement (+2 is A LOT for a single unit). The faster promotions can close the gap between strength with the CA, or give them a quick heal, whereas CA cannot do so as quickly or as often.

EDIT: Actually, does anyone know if the Kesh get +3 movement in total? The Mongol ua gives all mounts +1, so I'm wondering if it stacks.
 
Ya but the mongols get +1 movement from there UA so it is effectively 2.


Babylon 11
China 1
Inca 19
Korea 15

Inca: A well rounded Civ, you save quite a bit of money from roads, are strong on the attack thanks to the hill movement and can have nice tiles thanks to there UI. I also may be in the minority on this one but i like singers and there promotion carries over.

Babylon: Great Civ but there UU expires to fast and there UB is OK. I like there UA but IMO i generate more science with Korea in the long run.
 
Ya but the mongols get +1 movement from there UA so it is effectively 2.

Ah, I didn't realize they had increased the base movement rate of the Keshik. Also interestingly they matched the hammer cost of camel archers and keshiks, they are both now 120. 21 ranged attack vs 16 though is pretty significant, I'll still take that over extra movement which doesn't provide any huge advantage over the more than adequate 4 the camel archer gets. They're pretty evenly matched though all things considered imo.
 
Babylon 11
China 2
Inca 17
Korea 15

China: The next vote may overrule mine, but when heads need to roll China is the civ to do it.

Inca: So you can cross mountains? Great, but then your units run away... :lol:
 
Babylon 12
China 2
Inca 15
Korea 15

Inca overrated, Babylon scientists are great.
 
Are posts #1250 and #1259 really valid? Post #1250 gives no reason and Post #1259 only gives a reason for the up vote.

Babylon 10
China 3
Inca 15
Korea 15

I've voted negative for China in the past, but I think that it's actually the most interesting of the remaining civilizations. The UB encourages play toward Science and Gold, which makes them great for a Science victory. Or, you can use the extra GGs to go for Conquest. Plus, the colors are nice.

Babylon is pretty much just a one-trick pony with such a great focus on Science that it's almost silly to go for any other victory type. Boring!
 
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