Civilization elimination thread

[Gucumatz]

I could understand England actually more than China.

But put them head to head.

Keshiks/Camel Archers vs Longbows/Cho-ko-nuhs. Keshiks/Camel Archers >>> have beat every opponent I have ever faced or seen other players in NQ with those matchups in even circumstances. The mobility is just more powerful than the double movement. The extra range I actually believe is a bit more powerful because it allows you to clean up retreating units before they have the chance. The extra bonus from great gens isn't much compared to the other synergy UAs left. And while gens have more purpose with citadel wars - it just isn't that great. The UB? Does it beat the Incan UI? No. The Arabian UB? No. The UA does it beat anyone else's UAs from the final 7? No. The only thing that China has had going for them this long is their UU - and its not even the best all around. Arabia is more diverse and didn't survive even with the better UU. Mongolia with arguably the best UU and Khan synergy isn't riding on their unit coatails - why should China?

 

[Tabarnak]

Problem with Keshiks and Camel Archers is that you need horses to make a good upgrade--->fast rush. Not every map offers them in good quantity, secondly, their upgrade path annihilate their promotions focused on ranged units. And finally you can stop them with enough iron(longswordmen). They are strong, but not as strong as crossbowmen UU.

The slow motion pace at moving each unit and move them after makes enough time to the defender to also switch and move their defensive units. When the defender also gets pikemen and horses, they are suddenly less powerful too.

Not always easy to defend against these camels/keshiks but with a good plan you can defend against them. Crossbowmen UUs are more ''deadly''(fast).

 

[DGDobrev]

Babylon 12
China 5
Inca 10
Korea 9

Vote for the day before I go to bed. a few minutes after midnight, but it was my birthday, there was a party, I drank a bit (ok, a lot) and I wanted to share some stuff/thoughts before I hit the pillow.

I made no case-specific topic, but I got to play my solo hotseat game with Babylon vs Korea duel today (granted, not under the conditions I outlined a few posts back). What bothers me, is that I played Korea as if I played a game of chess against myself: Babylon (white) starts first (no bowman rush, or it would be cheesy) and Korea (Black) counters or plays a gambit. I did not manage to beat myself as Korea against Babylon. With Babylon and its pure-GS strat got to advanced military units way before I did, and I really tried to streamline. What's worse, I tried to use a Hwach'a bug. If you can't get this unit to upgrade against AI opponents, there is no bug. You get a pure vanilla Hwach'a. NO bonuses, no nothing. With Babylon, using the stop at Education strat, I could easily steamroll the Korean cities with cannons and riflemen (with Korea, I still had Hwach'a and Crossbows), and I did against myself. Korea was simply lacking, and it needed like 20 more turns to counter me. I don't like this. I am a fan of the "make it or break it" strategy. If you don't manage, you don't try, or you try for fun, just to see what happens.

I may be wrong, but there is one thing I learned from chess and the couple of medals I won there: if you can beat yourself, means you are doing something wrong, or you are simply a backwards player (low-brow?). I am also looking forward to the "ceteris paribus" game - anyone who studied economics knows this means "WHEN ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL" (maybe formulated differently in US and EN). I do expect Korea to beat Babylon there. Let's see what happens. Will keep you apprised and use all tactics I learned from Monthar, PhilBowles and others who suggested Korea tactics (even the unorthodox one, like PhilBowles - note, I gotta say I like it) here.

 

[pensivepeppers]

Babylon 12
China 3 (-2)
Inca 11 (+1)
Korea 9

oh dear, China definitely shouldn't have made it this far, so now they're obviously the worst Civ here.

Incas get an upvote because while I don't own the DLC they seem like one of the best, judging by their UA, UU, and UI.

 

[Gucumatz]

Problem with Keshiks and Camel Archers is that you need horses to make a good upgrade--->fast rush. Not every map offers them in good quantity, secondly, their upgrade path annihilate their promotions focused on ranged units. And finally you can stop them with enough iron(longswordmen). They are strong, but not as strong as crossbowmen UU.

The slow motion pace at moving each unit and move them after makes enough time to the defender to also switch and move their defensive units. When the defender also gets pikemen and horses, they are suddenly less powerful too.

Not always easy to defend against these camels/keshiks but with a good plan you can defend against them. Crossbowmen UUs are more ''deadly''(fast).

Ok agree to disagree.

But even then, what else does China have going for them. A Civ like Arabia doesn't ONLY have them and thats not the only thing its amazing at. China is so funnelled into that one view its not very diverse and easy to predict and with terrain management isn't hard to deal with (unless any civ is given too much). With Arabia if its too much to attack you can sit back and grow your empire. Dealing with Camel Archers with "longs" isn't really a response. You could do the same with CKNs/Crossbows. Mobility and multiple attacks do the deal. And while horses are the limiting factor, horses tend to be easy to acquire and fairly common in almost every situation.

Its just compared to other civs China has so little going for it that others didn't, couldn't do better, and be more versatile with at the same time.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Happy Birthday, DGDobrev!

i know you guys are talking about those units in players hands, but china AI really pisses me off because they get the Great Wall in EVERY game im in. combine that with CKNs and i have to wait an era to go after them. england isnt in as many of my games, but if they got Great Wall it would be the same, delayed till i had better units. but i OCCd with China and got the Wall and held off great war infantry with promo'd CKNs (and a couple cannons) fairly well. of course that relied on poor AI but all my games do to some extent.

 

[DGDobrev]

Ah... That was sweet, thanks, Hammer Rabbi... I must admit I said it as a kind of an excuse - I posted a bit late after proposing a specific game, and I do admit I was slacking a bit cause I had to do some prep for the small party I made.

In any case, the last hotseat game was really enlightening, and I do look forward to trying my hand in an all things equal game. If my math manages to live to its glory (modesty, urgh-hmmmm?!?!), Korea will be a decisive winner.

EDIT: @ Hammer Rabbi:
maybe that is one of the things I loved about China. On Deity I never build the Great Wall and China gets to hate the civ that did it. Usually, that civ is a wonder-builder, economic, or DOW civ - if they DOWed me, this means I get China as a friend (your enemy is my enemy), and I always get to shave 2 techs of RA's cause China builds a Paper Maker in any city, meaning better BPT). I really love to befriend that Kimono-chick. She was a key partner in many of my games.

 

[bixbeiderbaby]

Agreed. I always think China's UA is more something that fits Germany. I am a historian, And for every Chinese general i can think of i can probably name a dozen German ones.

Not to doubt your knowledge as a historian, but after my online war discussions with the Chinese I'm sure the more knowledgeable Chinese history buffs could name 10 Chinese generals for every European one we could name.

But I agree that China was and is not a 'war' civ IRL. Given the number of times they've been conquered, and the number of times their conquerors were assimilated, I can see them more as a cultural civ.

Either way, I want China to win this one...

 

[Tavenier]

Not to doubt your knowledge as a historian, but after my online war discussions with the Chinese I'm sure the more knowledgeable Chinese history buffs could name 10 Chinese generals for every European one we could name.

But I agree that China was and is not a 'war' civ IRL. Given the number of times they've been conquered, and the number of times their conquerors were assimilated, I can see them more as a cultural civ.

Either way, I want China to win this one...

Thats because China is around for such a long time. Most of those generals that can be named dont have the resumé of German generals, let alone European generals. Napoleon, Caesar, Manstein, Rommel, Guderian, Frederick the Great, etc. I dont think that for every one of the above someone can name ten (or even one for that matter) Chinese equivalent. I can think of loads of Chinese generals, but just not that many of à legendary status, even in China itself. I have been in China twice And they seem to honour the common soldier way more then any general. Of course thats because of the ideology, but still.

Good point about Chinese culture though. To come up with a UA for China i would rather think of something cultural, productive or pop growth. Not purely military.

 

[Tachii]

Well still have 3 hours before my 24hrs but I ain't going to sleep that late today so might as well keep China alive for the day.

Babylon 10
China 3
Inca 11
Korea 10

No where is Babylon on one of my favs/interesting/powerful civs to play in the top 5, nevermind top 3. Though public opinion will think otherwise. Early academy is nice with 50% more GS is nice but just isn't very fun in my game. The wall also is often avoided most of the time since defense buildings is usually the last resort.

Pretty sure China is dead by tomorrow since the same guys will vote against China again tomorrow morning so I'll vote for Korea instead. I love to vote for China again but I feel it's a bit redundant at this point. Korea at least have some interesting UUs to make them more interesting than Babylon and Incans.

 

[PhilBowles]

I may be wrong, but there is one thing I learned from chess and the couple of medals I won there: if you can beat yourself, means you are doing something wrong, or you are simply a backwards player (low-brow?). I am also looking forward to the "ceteris paribus" game - anyone who studied economics knows this means "WHEN ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL" (maybe formulated differently in US and EN). I do expect Korea to beat Babylon there. Let's see what happens. Will keep you apprised and use all tactics I learned from Monthar, PhilBowles and others who suggested Korea tactics (even the unorthodox one, like PhilBowles - note, I gotta say I like it) here.

I tried that one today in a Korea game on Immortal. It got me into the science lead readily enough - I was tech leader early in the ADs. But through terrain availability rather than choice I ended up with the 'food only city' problem - also, as others here had predicted, I did struggle with happiness which hampered farming too many specialists early; I also got religion late limiting my benefits from Cathedrals. I did succeed in teching fast and staying in the lead until Catherine became a runaway and was able to farm science from the pop in all the remaining cities on the map (having wiped out the competition). I also succeeded in managing my specialists so that I only popped GSes (except for one in the late game where I needed cash so deliberately popped an Artist for the Golden Age). I was level-pegging with Catherine for most of the late game despite her massive population advantage, which just demonstrates how strong Korean science can be (I had 5 cities and a total population probably little over 60). But my lack of production meant she got Apollo a lot earlier even though I had the tech before she did, and she beat me to Hubble and the spaceship on the same basis (plus she was simultaneously pursuing domination, so I wouldn't have survived to complete the ship anyway, as I'd completely neglected units given how slowly I was producing essential buildings).

Though I've no idea how she did it, but she also obtained a massive tech lead right at the end of the game. I was so far ahead that when she completed Hubble I was still in first place - however within a few turns she was 9 techs ahead of me (98% to my 89%). No idea how that happened.

EDIT: Also notable that I was unable to build my capital close to a mountain, so this was without the observatory bonus

 

[PhilBowles]

Good point about Chinese culture though. To come up with a UA for China i would rather think of something cultural, productive or pop growth. Not purely military.

How about a bonus of some kind (perhaps happiness or a beaker boost) for every social policy they complete? That would be interestingly different, and would reflect the Chinese skill at administration.

 

[bixbeiderbaby]

Thats because China is around for such a long time. Most of those generals that can be named dont have the resumé of German generals, let alone European generals. Napoleon, Caesar, Manstein, Rommel, Guderian, Frederick the Great, etc. I dont think that for every one of the above someone can name ten (or even one for that matter) Chinese equivalent. I can think of loads of Chinese generals, but just not that many of à legendary status, even in China itself. I have been in China twice And they seem to honour the common soldier way more then any general. Of course thats because of the ideology, but still.

You should be careful though... the notion of 'great general' is at risk of being influenced by ethnocentrism... A Chinese general of minimal status in the West could be quite the legend in China (and I've been to China too, they tout the CCP generals all the time on the documentaries of CCTV9).

I mean, whenever I come across those "Greatest Battles of History" compilations... you know, the ones that list the battles that changed the course of history... they never ever include anything from China, India, the Middle East, etc.

 

[ense7en]

Babylon 10
China 1
Inca 12
Korea 10

Again, it's really tough to downvote any civs; has been for a while now.

China's a great civ, no denying it.

GPT free Libraries with +2 gold is very nice.
Problem i have with China is that they really need to warmonger to take advantage of their UA and UU, or they just aren't that great as no war means the only thing they have going for them is a gold-making library.

Incas.
Fantastic fun when going tall in hilly mountainous regions
I've yet to play a game with them where i didn't get at least a few nice tall cities with tons of production due to their Terrace Farms + nearby hill bias.
Slingers aren't great, but i've currently got machine guns with a chance to retreat in my current game...it's a nice perk that carries on if you are warmongering.
And normal movement on hills is just amazing in war...it's always tough going back to playing other civs afterwards.
Almost entirely free roads and railroads in the your starting area? Yes please

 

[Villager720]

Babylon 10
China 0
Inca 13
Korea 10

The Inca... everything that can be said about their strengths has been said. Suffice to say, they're awesome at anything they want, and are not niche-y like the final two.

China. Im not sure why they made it this far. For a Civ to have made it to the final four, Id have assumed itd have great 2 "U"s and a powerful UA. And theres the problem with China. Its UA just isnt spectacular. Especially for a Civ that really isnt too war oriented considering it only has 1 amazing UU. Therefore, farewell China.

 

[animalguy]

By that logic the inca should go as the slinger really isnt that good (lost a worker to the stupid ability)

Anyway time for my vote:

Babylon 8 (-2)
Inca 13
Korea 11 (+1)

Babylon: UU just dosent last anymore. Pre G&K this civ was amzing, but now its lost alot of its adaptability when it comes to early war.

Korea: Regardless of the bug with Hwacha they atre still amazing. Great for culture, science and diplo, and they are beast on water maps with their turtle ships.

 

[draaibaar]

Babylon 8
Inca 14
Korea 9

Inca: hills & mountains: so fascinating for someone living in the polders.
Korea: when I saw their UA I thought Firaxis was out of ideas.

 

[animalguy]

Korea: when I saw their UA I thought Firaxis was out of ideas.

How they are the only civ which gains a benefit to GP tile improvements!

 

[Mesix]

Babylon 9 (+1)
Inca 12 (-2)
Korea 9

Babylon. the king of which is the most important aspect of the game.

Inca is highly biased to a particular terrain. Their "bonus" terrain improvement is more of an apology for having unworkable mountain tiles to deal with.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Babylon 7
Inca 12
Korea 10

Of the three remaining CIVs, Babylon is the least flexible. Korea on the other hand supports an unique playstile, thanks to the specialist and GP bonus and an awesome UU (H'wacha).

Inca is highly biased to a particular terrain. Their "bonus" terrain improvement is more of an apology for having unworkable mountain tiles to deal with.

That leads to an interesting question: How large is the area influenced by starting bias? And, honestly, mountain tiles rarely matter even in my OCC games when it comes to working them.