Civilization Most Overrated in Influence.

[cybrxkhan]

^Mozart was an Austrian, not a German. (that means hes still Germanic)

 

[Traitorfish]

^Mozart was an Austrian, not a German. (that means hes still Germanic)

Plus, during Mozart's time Austria was part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations, that period's equivalent of Germany. Modern Germany- Kleindeutschland (Lesser Germany)- is comprised of the areas of Germany which came under Prussian influence, while Großdeutschland (Greater Germany) also includes Austria.

 

[Mirc]

^Mozart was an Austrian, not a German. (that means hes still Germanic)

Austria speaks German, not any other Germanic language, and at the time it was part of the HRE of German Nation. Sorry but I see absolutely no difference between Austria (at that time; tbh I didn't see any significant difference today either but I don't want to offend any nationalist ) and Germany.

Plus as Traitorfish said the Great Germany comprises Austria.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Plus, the OP said civilization, not nation.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I know, i know. The Germanics were very important, to Western Civilization at the least. They finished up Rome, helped in the crafting of the future world power England, and gave us Bach.

 

[Mirc]

I know, i know. The Germanics were very important, to Western Civilization at the least. They finished up Rome, helped in the crafting of the future world power England, and gave us Bach.

What we were trying to say is that Austrians qualify as Germans, not just Germanics, at least for the period when Bach lived.

 

[scherbchen]

well... funny thing about Austrians. they will claim every positive piece of the German heritage but will insist that for example the Anschluss was just a propaganda hoax....

my experience... commence the flames

 

[Traitorfish]

well... funny thing about Austrians. they will claim every positive piece of the German heritage but will insist that for example the Anschluss was just a propaganda hoax....

my experience... commence the flames

Eh, you get the same with some Scots. Happy to take credit for their part in the positive aspects of the Empire, but as soon as slavery, oppression and general arseholery are mentioned "Aw, no, mate, that was the English. We had nothing to do with it." (Well, it's actually more like "Wi heed nooth'n ta dee wiyit", but y'know what I mean...)

 

[GoodSarmatian]

And somehow the Austrians get away with making Mozart an Austrian and Hitler a German.

 

[Bast]

And somehow the Austrians get away with making Mozart an Austrian and Hitler a German.

Actually they have a good argument because Mozart was born, worked and died in Austria. Whereas Hitler was only born in Austria. He rose to power in Germany, led Germany and died in Germany. It's not about the country you're born in but that one that you adopt.

 

[Brighteye]

Actually, the Chinese built sophisticated rockets for use in warfare, as early as the 12th century, as did the Mongols and Indians (and of course the Koreans who developed the famous Hwacha). The Chinese also used handcannons and cannons around the same time and the technology soon spread to other parts of Asia (the Arabs used it at Ain Jalut, and the defenders of Malacca used cannons against the Portuguese for instances).

So it appears from Rambuchan's article that even when the Indians had refined rockets they were still mostly for noise and show and were inaccurate. I hardly call that sophisticated.
Gunpowder rockets were mostly a military dead-end, with projectile weapons such as cannons and muskets proving far more useful.

And even so, China has had major economic influence for practically the entire history of the world starting with the Classical Age. In other words, some things have been "Made in China" for a while.

The two main trading routes from China to the rest of the world were the Silk Road and the Indian Maritime Route. China produced a lot of pretty silk. People elsewhere liked the pretty silk. Like the Romans. Or the Arabs. Or even the Vikings. Or even the Zulus' ancestors.

1. Creating cultural and political exchanges between various nations and cultures, and encouraging economic growth.

3. Spreading Chinese technolgies such as gunpowder and the printing press to the Middle East and then Europe.

The silks and spices from China were desired, but were hardly vital, and they didn't spread Chinese culture much given how much trade happened along the routes.
It's like claiming that South Africa is infulential because of its diamond mines. Well, yes, people like diamonds, but they're not important.
We've already had someone comment (maybe not in this thread) on how the printing press did not spread from China, but was invented in Europe. If the Chinese did have it, it was invented separately, apparently.

As Rambuchan suggests in his post on rockets, some inventions (like rocketry or gunpowder weapons) are difficult to attribute to one person or even one nation, but developed bit by bit in different places. Was gunpowder really the important invention, or was it using it in muskets? Was the invention of the flintlock more important than either, or would rifling count as the major advance?
Are muskets not really important, since longbows and crossbows were fairly good, and we should actually be thinking about cannon, which changed fortification and strategy, if not tactics as much?

Steam power was (re-)invented in Britain, along with railways, and was actually used to good effect in mills and railways. Such inventions can truly be cited as a source of influence for Britain because not only were they made here, but their influential use was mostly perfected here.

 

[cybrxkhan]

The silks and spices from China were desired, but were hardly vital, and they didn't spread Chinese culture much given how much trade happened along the routes.
It's like claiming that South Africa is infulential because of its diamond mines. Well, yes, people like diamonds, but they're not important.
We've already had someone comment (maybe not in this thread) on how the printing press did not spread from China, but was invented in Europe. If the Chinese did have it, it was invented separately, apparently.

As Rambuchan suggests in his post on rockets, some inventions (like rocketry or gunpowder weapons) are difficult to attribute to one person or even one nation, but developed bit by bit in different places. Was gunpowder really the important invention, or was it using it in muskets? Was the invention of the flintlock more important than either, or would rifling count as the major advance?
Are muskets not really important, since longbows and crossbows were fairly good, and we should actually be thinking about cannon, which changed fortification and strategy, if not tactics as much?

Steam power was (re-)invented in Britain, along with railways, and was actually used to good effect in mills and railways. Such inventions can truly be cited as a source of influence for Britain because not only were they made here, but their influential use was mostly perfected here.

I'm not saying that because of the trading that made China the world's ultimate cultural power. Im just saying because of it, it has had an economic impact on the world.

The Europeans would've never bothered to explore the world, at least that early and as we know it, if they didn't want Chinese stuff. The Romans wouldn't have gotten into debt (which helped to lead to their collapse) if they didn't buy that much silk (along with other goods). Sure, it is true Europeans aren't using Chinese technical terms, but the Silk Road has had a subliminal influence.

The Silk Road was a major route, a place where different cultures met and exchanged many many things. Althuogh Alexander the Great and his conquests played an important role in the making of the Silk Road, it was really China that was the key factor.

 

[luiz]

I'm not saying that because of the trading that made China the world's ultimate cultural power. Im just saying because of it, it has had an economic impact on the world.

The Europeans would've never bothered to explore the world, at least that early and as we know it, if they didn't want Chinese stuff. The Romans wouldn't have gotten into debt (which helped to lead to their collapse) if they didn't buy that much silk (along with other goods). Sure, it is true Europeans aren't using Chinese technical terms, but the Silk Road has had a subliminal influence.

The Silk Road was a major route, a place where different cultures met and exchanged many many things. Althuogh Alexander the Great and his conquests played an important role in the making of the Silk Road, it was really China that was the key factor.

I think your mistake here is that you're assuming all the desired good came from China. The europeans wanted chinese silk, yes, but they also wanted the spices from India, tapestry from Persia, all sorts of goods from Africa, etc. Chinese goods were hardly the ultimate motivation for european maritime expansion, or for roman debt, even if it surely played it's part.

 

[Mirc]

^ In fact, I'd say India has a much, much higher influence than China when it comes to exporting goods to Europe. After all, even Columbus was searching for India, not for China. And that's just one sole example.

 

[Tee Kay]

So it appears from Rambuchan's article that even when the Indians had refined rockets they were still mostly for noise and show and were inaccurate. I hardly call that sophisticated.
Gunpowder rockets were mostly a military dead-end, with projectile weapons such as cannons and muskets proving far more useful.

Actually no, because gunpowder rockets are, in some ways, the basis for later solid and liquid fuel rockets that got us to the moon and back.

Indian and Chinese were inaccurate, so? They are pretty deadly. Early cannons are inaccurate, as are muskets. And they're fired in groups, not individually.

 

[EdwardTking]

IMHO Ancient Greek civilisation is over rated.

People claim that the Greeks invented:

democracy, logic, mathematics, medicine, philosophy, rheteroic, science

But most of the mathematics, medicine and science was picked up from their neighbours.

The democracy degenerated into mobocracy, and the philosophy and rheteroic went off into dead ends of symbolism and abstraction.

 

[Plotinus]

Whether those things "degenerated" like that or not, that doesn't change the fact that the Greeks invented them...

 

[Brighteye]

The Europeans would've never bothered to explore the world, at least that early and as we know it, if they didn't want Chinese stuff.

The Silk Road was a major route, a place where different cultures met and exchanged many many things. Althuogh Alexander the Great and his conquests played an important role in the making of the Silk Road, it was really China that was the key factor.

Surely we can hardly give China more influence via the silk road than the Europeans who created the demand? We should share the influence. Trade can't happen without a buyer just as much as it can't happen without goods to sell.

 

[Tee Kay]

Whether those things "degenerated" like that or not, that doesn't change the fact that the Greeks invented them...

There's evidence of democratic systems of government not unlike one of the Greeks in ancient Sumer, and many early prehistoric tribes appear to be democratic and egalitarian in nature.

Athenian democracy wasn't genuine democracy (many people are excluded from voting, including all women) and it degenerated and collapsed. Greece only became a democracy again in 1975 IIRC.

Anyway, although most of Greece's mathematics, science and medicine were indeed picked up from their neighbours, the Greeks did expanded on them a lot, in the same way the Arabs later picked up Greek science and expanded on them. While I think Greece tends to be overrated in Western minds it's still a very influential civilisation, as much as say, Egypt or even China.

 

[Brighteye]

While I think Greece tends to be overrated in Western minds it's still a very influential civilisation, as much as say, Egypt or even China.

I found this funny because Egypt and China are the two civilisations that I find most over-rated, and I'd place their influence on my country and culture as insignificant when compared to that of Greece.
Their influence on the world also hardly compares.
Someone graciously granting Greece perhaps as much possible influence as them is amusing. It's a bit like someone saying that a Jaguar is actually quite a nice car: it's maybe even as nice as a Skoda or a Daewoo.