Civilization Most Overrated in Influence.

[Traitorfish]

I don't believe that a civ can be overrated in influence. Every major civilization influenced at least something in our lives.

But the question is the extent of that influence when compared to the perception of influence. "Overrated", after all, is a relative term- it's quite possible for a civilisation to be both highly influential and be overrated in terms of influence.

 

[mr_lewington]

id say greece as underrated. forerunners of modern democracy (go monarcy!) and westernized, erm, the west.

 

[mr_lewington]

^Not really necessary. It's plainly obvious when you watch Star Trek that the whole 'Federation' thing is really just a futuristic extension of one United States of America. They even talk just like Americans, so the influence is overwhlemingly apparent. Kirk, the ace of the fleet, is from where? Iowa. Not Paris. And another thing that should be plainly obvious by now, is that reality more or less follows the path of sci-fi, as we move into the future. So, that is what we have to look forward to. Exciting, and definitely predominantly USA-infuenced. Not France, who colonized a bunch of wasteland (the leftovers Britain didn't want, or didn't intimidate France into not taking) and made absolutely nothing out of them.

Then again at the grocery store the other day, the checker was this black chick from the Caribbean, and her 1st language was French (I asked). So, there's the influence, for ya. Of course, I work with a black chick who's from Jamaica, and English is her 1st language (though certainly not a dailect I can easily understand), and she has a MUCH better job. Yet another case of British influence being more successful.

USA is only influential in the past 50 years? Yeah, that's it. Basically the U.S. has been a vacuum cleaner sucking immigrants out of the whole world (namely Europe) for much longer than that. So how about that for influence? Where would those European nations be today had they never lost all those people to emigration? So, that's influence, right from the beginning. The USA is like that 'sleeper' dragster you never payed attention to, until it was in the lead. Now you're ticked off because you didn't see it coming. Hey man, the influence was there whether you knew it or not - that's why it effectively has you in the position of being SPANKED at this time

thats complete rubbish. i know nothing about star terk but i know its american made. In futurama, the flag of earth is the flag of the USA with a glove on it and it has "the president of earth". Again american made. Just because americans make shows where their the top dog means nothing of influence. Every country does/will/can that. and as for immigrants, its not america that was influencing the immigrents, it was the new world. People who immigrated to the US didnt even know where it was, jsut that they were gonig there. also canada has a massive immigrent population but they arent increbly influencable.

 

[aronnax]

id say greece as underrated. forerunners of modern democracy (go monarcy!) and westernized, erm, the west.

Oh please democracy for about what, 90 people in all of athens? You can't vote if you are a women, slave, foreigner blah blah. I rather live in Persia

 

[mr_lewington]

women couldnt vote til 1920 in america and slaves couldnt vote til whenever (dont no much about american slavery)

 

[aronnax]

So that doesnt make them much of a democracy either

Britian and Netherlands should be the forerunners of Democracy.

 

[z_step18]

Oh please democracy for about what, 90 people in all of athens? You can't vote if you are a women, slave, foreigner blah blah. I rather live in Persia

You would rather live in Persia? How was Persia more "democratic" than Athens, if that was what you were implying. The fact that Athens wasn't a full blown democracy doesn't take away at all its importance, in my opinion. The full rights that were given to males was revolutionary in a time that rule was established by "tyrants". And wasn't Sparta the only known, or one of the few, to have a "direct democracy".

 

[aronnax]

You would rather live in Persia? How was Persia more "democratic" than Athens, if that was what you were implying. The fact that Athens wasn't a full blown democracy doesn't take away at all its importance, in my opinion. The full rights that were given to males was revolutionary in a time that rule was established by "tyrants". And wasn't Sparta the only known, or one of the few, to have a "direct democracy".

No I just like Pesian Architeratue better....

 

[Lotus49]

Surley you guys aren't under the impression that the U.S. was the only country in the world that had slavery in the 19th century...

Granted the southern States in the USA were some of the last to finally (after being forced) to abolish it, but to sit there and say other nations being talked about here had nothing to do w/ slavery is the biggest pile of BS I've yet to read in this thread.

So, the ACW gets all the press, and meanwhile all the other European (and worldwide) participants in slavery get to just slip into the background, and proclaim their hands are clean.

That's laughable. But what else is new.

 

[Traitorfish]

thats complete rubbish. i know nothing about star terk but i know its american made. In futurama, the flag of earth is the flag of the USA with a glove on it and it has "the president of earth". Again american made.

That's actually a parody of the whole "Planet America" thing you get in shows like Star Trek. (And it's the US flag with a picture of the Earth (western hemisphere, of course. Not sure where you got "glove" from...) The point is that the "United States of Earth" shown in Futurama is essentially identical to the modern USA, but expanded to cover the entire planet.

 

[cybrxkhan]

You would rather live in Persia? How was Persia more "democratic" than Athens, if that was what you were implying. The fact that Athens wasn't a full blown democracy doesn't take away at all its importance, in my opinion. The full rights that were given to males was revolutionary in a time that rule was established by "tyrants". And wasn't Sparta the only known, or one of the few, to have a "direct democracy".

Persia was still more civilized and had better organization than Greece. really.

Greece was more closer to a bunch of barbarians that Persia. Persia was the biggest, richest empire on earth at the time.

 

[z_step18]

Persia was still more civilized and had better organization than Greece. really.

Greece was more closer to a bunch of barbarians that Persia. Persia was the biggest, richest empire on earth at the time.

I guess thats my mistake. I was under the impression that it was the opposite. I knew that were the greatest empire at the time, but thanks for the clarification.

I'm just getting into Ancient Greece.

 

[cybrxkhan]

At least you weren't thinking the way 300 was.

 

[mr_lewington]

Not sure where you got "glove" from

tpyo fo globe

and lotus (not putting down the US) wasnt america the only nation to have a war over the ending of slavery in the west?

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

You would rather live in Persia? How was Persia more "democratic" than Athens, if that was what you were implying. The fact that Athens wasn't a full blown democracy doesn't take away at all its importance, in my opinion. The full rights that were given to males was revolutionary in a time that rule was established by "tyrants". And wasn't Sparta the only known, or one of the few, to have a "direct democracy".

Just to let you know Persia had a bill of rights and was just as advanced if not more and were definitely more cultured and wordly than the Greeks who championed the white man's democracy; no power to women, slaves, foreigners and poor white men. I also hear the Persians had no slaves but I don't believe that. Hollywood likes to paint pics of a civilized west vs. a barbaric east where it is really the other way around.

 

[Traitorfish]

Just to let you know Persia had a bill of rights and was just as advanced if not more and were definitely more cultured and wordly than the Greeks who championed the white man's democracy; no power to women, slaves, foreigners and poor white men.

Well, brown-ish man's democracy- northern Europeans such as ourselves (unless you're something else) where seen as pale, sun-starved barbarians who could barely be trusted not to set themselves on fire, let alone run a city. (Remember, the idea of "white" Greco-Roman culture is an invention of the 19th century, one which most classical Greeks and Romans would have laughed at.)

 

[cybrxkhan]

^bravo, bravo.

 

[Brighteye]

But there is one thing that American cannot be underrated for - Democracy. Its victory against the British set a chain of events even American-haters know determined the course of modern history well.

So that doesnt make them much of a democracy either

Britian and Netherlands should be the forerunners of Democracy.

Americans rebelled against a democratic country. We had a Parliament, and had had for quite some time.

Just to let you know Persia had a bill of rights and was just as advanced if not more and were definitely more cultured and wordly than the Greeks who championed the white man's democracy; no power to women, slaves, foreigners and poor white men. I also hear the Persians had no slaves but I don't believe that. Hollywood likes to paint pics of a civilized west vs. a barbaric east where it is really the other way around.

I think you may have a slight bias on this one. Obviously it depends what period we're considering, but Ancient Greek civilisation was certainly the most advanced in thought and technology at its peak.
There was a great deal of interaction with Asia Minor via the colonies, so I'm sure that people exchanged ideas; some great Greek thinkers were from the colonies.
The Persian organisation and bill of rights died ignominious deaths and had no further influence, whereas Greek thought and culture formed the basis for the Roman empire and, later, western culture and the enlightenment.

 

[Plotinus]

Americans rebelled against a democratic country. We had a Parliament, and had had for quite some time.

To call eighteenth-century England a democracy is ludicrous; about three people in the country could vote, and the monarch still had real power. Merely having a parliament doesn't make a country democratic. Our parliament was not instituted as a tool of democracy - its origins were more of a tool of oligarchy, to limit the powers of the monarch in favour of the land-owners. The fact that it has since become a (mostly) democratic institution is a sort of accident of history. I don't see that one could plausibly argue that Britain was a democracy at any time before 1918, since before that date, most adults could not vote.

Of course, the United States wasn't founded as a democracy either. Democracy as we know it was an ideal held by very few people, if any, at that time.

 

[GinandTonic]

The point of the Magna Carta was not to give power to the people but to limit the power of the King. In the normal run of things the Barons would have put a new King on the throne but all the alternatives were worse, or at least more French which amounted to the same thing. So the same King is kept but under, as it were, restrictions.

Assuming that is right Plotinus, what were the reasions for the expansion of voting over the centuries?