[LP] Civilization VI: Leader Pass - Discussion Thread

[Kjimmet]

They could've kept one and replaced another. Right now it just seems like Korea is stuck with head of Silla in a body of Joseon. It just doesn't feel right to play a Silla queen in a clearly nation that is Joseon.

I don't have enough knowlegde of Korean history to comment on Silla-Joseon issue you see, but what I can say is that China has the same issue. It's repesented with multiple leaders from different dynasties that are further away from each other than the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Only logical way to fix the issue you see, is to remove Korea and add Silla for Seondeok and Joseon for Sejong, but most civ players don't care about Silla or Joseon, they care only about Korea.

edit: Made first sentence clearer.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I don't have enough knowlegde of Korean history to comment on this, but what I can say is that China has the same issue. It's repesented with multiple leaders from different dynasties that are further away from each other than the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Only logical way to fix the issue you see, is to remove Korea and add Silla for Seondeok and Joseon for Sejong, but most civ players don't care about Silla or Joseon, they care only about Korea.

What is even more odd is that actual name "Korea" came from a Dynasty that KILLED Silla- Goryeo Dynasty.
So in the intro she is using is a name of Dynasty that ended her nation..

 

[InsidiousMage]

I'll admit to not getting the desire to have specific leaders in the game because, to me, the most important quality of a leader is whether or not their history can be translated into interesting gameplay by the devs. This is why I think having a leader show up too many times is also bad since the devs are limiting themselves because you can only express, say, the life of Trajan in so many ways before you run out of good ideas. Rotating leaders is important because it brings new ideas and, potentially, new players to the game because they might be interested in a certain time of a civ's history instead of the one that Firaxis constantly uses. If having Seondeok in the game over Sejong in the game initially brought in some new players then having her in the game was the correct choice to make. The phrase "variety is the spice of life" exists for a reason after all. So, in closing, more Islamic Iranian leaders in Civ7!

 

[Zaarin]

I'll admit to not getting the desire to have specific leaders in the game because, to me, the most important quality of a leader is whether or not their history can be translated into interesting gameplay by the devs. This is why I think having a leader show up too many times is also bad since the devs are limiting themselves because you can only express, say, the life of Trajan in so many ways before you run of good ideas. Rotating leaders is important because it brings new ideas and, potentially, new players to the game because they might be interested in a certain time of a civ's history instead of the one that Firaxis constantly uses. If having Seondeok in the game over Sejong in the game initially brought in some new players then having her in the game was the correct choice to make.

I agree with your overall point, though I think Seondeok was a missed opportunity for a less science-focused Korea.

So, in closing, more post Islamic Iranian leaders in Civ7!

The Sassanian Empire would like a word.

 

[Navelgazer]

I'll admit to not getting the desire to have specific leaders in the game because, to me, the most important quality of a leader is whether or not their history can be translated into interesting gameplay by the devs. This is why I think having a leader show up too many times is also bad since the devs are limiting themselves because you can only express, say, the life of Trajan in so many ways before you run of good ideas

This is why I'm probably most excited about Ludwig - a culture-focused Germany feels like something genuinely new for the franchise.

 

[queenpea]

This is why I'm probably most excited about Ludwig - a culture-focused Germany feels like something genuinely new for the franchise.

Just wish he was coming with Neuschwanstein!

 

[InsidiousMage]

I agree with your overall point, though I think Seondeok was a missed opportunity for a less science-focused Korea.

Eh, I think that's less the fault of choosing Seondeok and more of Firaxis not going outside of the familiar. I'd love for a religious Rome lead by Constantine and/or Theodosius but I doubt we will see that happening for a while, if ever.

The Sassanian Empire would like a word.

I'd love a religious focused Sassanian civ with a heavy cavalry UU but I'd rather see post-Islam Iran first personally.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This is why I'm probably most excited about Ludwig - a culture-focused Germany feels like something genuinely new for the franchise.

Overlooking Frederick II for Civ IV, yes.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'll admit to not getting the desire to have specific leaders in the game because, to me, the most important quality of a leader is whether or not their history can be translated into interesting gameplay by the devs. This is why I think having a leader show up too many times is also bad since the devs are limiting themselves because you can only express, say, the life of Trajan in so many ways before you run of good ideas.

Isn't this the first time that Trajan's been in the game though? Unless you meant Julius?

Eh, I think that's less the fault of choosing Seondeok and more of Firaxis not going outside of the familiar. I'd love for a religious Rome lead by Constantine and/or Theodosius but I doubt we will see that happening for a while, if ever.

That's what Byzantium is for.
But seriously I don't see a scenario where we'd get a Roman emperor not leading from Rome, if leaders getting their actual capitals are going to continue to be a thing.

 

[Zaarin]

Eh, I think that's less the fault of choosing Seondeok and more of Firaxis not going outside of the familiar.

That's what I was saying. Seondeok was an opportunity for a more religious and/or cultural Korea, and Firaxis didn't take it. I'm bored to death with the 90s scientific Korea meme.

I'd love for a religious Rome lead by Constantine and/or Theodosius but I doubt we will see that happening for a while, if ever.

I mean, that's what Byzantium is for. Rome, unlike Greece, was extremely pious and almost paranoid in its religiosity, yet somehow I don't feel the need to have that represented in the game. "Boring infrastructure and expansion" just feels appropriate to being Rome's eternal niche, and if they break out of it I frankly propose giving them Babylon's science malus, topping it with an identical culture malus, and making them get their science and culture from conquering other civs. Like they did in real life.

I'd love a religious focused Sassanian civ with a heavy cavalry UU but I'd rather see post-Islam Iran first personally.

TBH in Civ7 I don't mind seeing the Achaemenids and Sassanids treated as one civ, perhaps with Darius I and Shahpur II as alternate leaders, but I'd rather see an Islamic Iranian civ like the Safavids treated as their own civ. (In Civ6 it's much too late in the day to be asking for a new civ so I'm fine with how they handled it.) It's true that the Sassanids overemphasized how much continuity they shared with the Achaemenids (and there is some evidence that not a lot of knowledge of the Achaemenids survived into Sassanian times)--and indeed the evidence for Zoroastrianism even existing in Achaemenid Persia is borderline nonexistent--but they still feel enough alike for me to say, "Sure, throw them together for the sake of not taking up excessive civ slots."

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Just wish he was coming with Neuschwanstein!

Maybe he will be a Fortress Spam leader.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Isn't this the first time that Trajan's been in the game though? Unless you meant Julius?

No, I meant Trajan because like, he's fine, but I'd rather see someone else in the game, for variety's sake if nothing else.

That's what Byzantium is for.

I mean, that's what Byzantium is for.

I mean, sure, but I think that, eventually, Firaxis does need to occasionally do something that is widely different with any given civ, even if only for one game, so that a) there is something new about a civ that's been in the game for multiple times and b) makes the return the standard civ abilities more enjoyable since they didn't have them in the previous game. See the complaints about science Korea.

TBH in Civ7 I don't mind seeing the Achaemenids and Sassanids treated as one civ, perhaps with Darius I and Shahpur II as alternate leaders, but I'd rather see an Islamic Iranian civ like the Safavids treated as their own civ.

I'd be down with this as well but I'm betting the earliest something like that would happen is in Civ8 at this point, unless Civ7 is actually another two or three years away. Anton Strenger gave a talk at a game conference and made a big point about how people responded really well to the non-standard civs and leaders like Gran Colombia and Jadwiga and I really hope that Firaxis takes that to heart and starts diversifying not only what civs and leaders they include but how they are represented as well, aka give me religious Rome!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maybe he will be a Fortress Spam leader.

I'd think I'd even rage if Ludwig's ability was just your Forts and city walls grant culture.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Well hopefully it would be something beyond that, yeah

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Maybe he will be a Fortress Spam leader.

Unfortunately, that would be completely inappropriate. None of his palaces (Neuschwanstein was only one of 8 built, started, or planned) were fortifications: Neuschwanstein is more of an elaborate Confection made of stone than anything else.
No, keep Ludwig Cultural - his Linderhof palace was actually designed to resemble the opening set of Wagner's opera The Valkyries, so even without Neuschwanstein there's lots of room for Cultural attributes.

Beside, Neuschwanstein is available as a Mod for Civ VI already if you can't sand being without it.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Unfortunately, that would be completely inappropriate. None of his palaces (Neuschwanstein was only one of 8 built, started, or planned) were fortifications: Neuschwanstein is more of an elaborate Confection made of stone than anything else.
No, keep Ludwig Cultural - his Linderhof palace was actually designed to resemble the opening set of Wagner's opera The Valkyries, so even without Neuschwanstein there's lots of room for Cultural attributes.

Beside, Neuschwanstein is available as a Mod for Civ VI already if you can't sand being without it.

It could certainly use the Fort mechanic but serve a completely different function though. I don't care if they DO, but I'm willing to bet that the inspiration for including him in Civ was the Castles of Mad King Ludwig board game series.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

*waiting patiently for someone to datamine the next pack out of the game files.*

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

It could certainly use the Fort mechanic but serve a completely different function though. I don't care if they DO, but I'm willing to bet that the inspiration for including him in Civ was the Castles of Mad King Ludwig board game series.

I mean, they transformed the Encampment as a culture district with the Vietnamese, doing something akin to that (taking something military to turn it into something cultural) wouldn't be inappropriate and not the first time they did it conceptually.

I mean, that's what Byzantium is for. Rome, unlike Greece, was extremely pious and almost paranoid in its religiosity, yet somehow I don't feel the need to have that represented in the game. "Boring infrastructure and expansion" just feels appropriate to being Rome's eternal niche, and if they break out of it I frankly propose giving them Babylon's science malus, topping it with an identical culture malus, and making them get their science and culture from conquering other civs. Like they did in real life.

Tha would be hilarious and a good take for Rome without straying too far from their overall design of expansionnist civ.
Unfortunately, that's Alexander The Civ' niche for now.

What is even more odd is that actual name "Korea" came from a Dynasty that KILLED Silla- Goryeo Dynasty.
So in the intro she is using is a name of Dynasty that ended her nation..

And France's ability name in pre-BNW Civ V was Ancien Régime while its leader was a guy who was literally a part of why this Ancien Régime crumbled to the ground and actively worked to never revive it again.
I mean, I can get the sentiment towards Seondeok. I had the same against Catherine at first (am French). I thought that an espionage leader for France would better fit Louis XI (the universal spider) or, if you want outside of official kings, the Cardinal Richelieu (with cats and hats), but at one point I learnt to accept her because, after all, this game is about personality, big personalities, and not achievments of the leader. That's why we have Dido, Kristina, Catherine, Ba Trieu, Ambiorix and Gandhi. Not because they were great leaders, but because of their personalities and because they still did things during their time worthy of remembering. The hatred you still have against Seondeok after so much time doesn't seems quite rational at this point...

But for the point of Sejong being actually an fat nerd the nose in his books, I dig this aesthetic and I hope it will be the case (we don't have enough plump leaders in Civ VI). But knowing how they did Kublai Khan (who was apparently describe as outwardly obese during his time), I think they'll stick with the more traditional depiction of him.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

but at one point I learnt to accept her because, after all, this game is about personality, big personalities, and not achievments of the leader. That's why we have Dido, Kristina, Catherine, Ba Trieu, Ambiorix and Gandhi. Not because they were great leaders, but because of their personalities and because they still did things during their time worthy of remembering. The hatred you still have against Seondeok after so much time doesn't seems quite rational at this point...

Most Koreans did but news of Sejong's inclusion sparked this old debate again in Korea and most of us feel Sejong is more fitting leader than Seondok.

 

[fy00sh]

Most Koreans did bur news of Sejong's inclusion sparked this old debate again in Korea and most of us feel Sejong is more fitting leader than Seondok.

i think if i had to make one installation of a 4x game and had only one shot to choose a leader for korea, id absolutely choose sejong, so in that sense yeah hes a better rep for korea than seondeok. but if i had multiple installations to work with, i think itd be better to vary the reps significantly across games, even if only one rep is easily a more "fitting leader" than the others, and even if some of theat variance included some real outta-left-field candidates, so long as theyre done well. my main complaint with seondeok isnt that sejong's more fitting so she shouldnt have been there in the first place, its that they failed to let seondeok live up to her potential as a unique refreshing take on korea. the governor ability is meh and other than that korea's really just Seowon: the Civ (featuring hwacha)