[LP] Civilization VI: Leader Pass - Discussion Thread

[Linklite]

Agreed. When only one aspect of the Civ is being changed (and typically not in any innovative or major way), the differences between leaders feel quite minor.

My worry with China (assuming that's who you're talking about) is that we'll be left with five leaders (including both of Qin's personas) that will each interact with the rest of the Civ to a varying degree. The pursuit of synergy with other civ attributes can often leave the differences between playstyle in alternate leaders slim. However, at least one of China's leaders needs to be dramatically different just so there's some reason to play the same Civ for a third, fourth, or fifth time.

Also, this is my 500th post!

I... may or may not have seen I was four posts away and just decided to binge Civ Fanatics for a half hour to write them. My lawyer suggested that I don't definitively answer that.

Anyway, back to my homework...

Well, I was talking about England, but China was certainly in mind when I wrote it too, as it will be the most egregious case of the same problem. Yeah, I know, it covers a lot of different land, cultures, etc, but I think that should be represented by having different Civs rather than five leaders. They just start to bleed into each otherwise.

Happy quincentennial post!

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah, I know, it covers a lot of different land, cultures, etc, but I think that should be represented by having different Civs rather than five leaders. They just start to bleed into each otherwise.

While I am generally of the "one civ, one leader" mindset, China is the one civ that presents me with a conundrum. Chinese history is so long that I do like the idea of representing multiple dynasties--but, without necessarily agreeing with the Mandate of Heaven view of Chinese history, I don't feel a strong need for a Tang, Song, Han, Qin, etc. civ. If only two or three civs received multiple leaders in the game, I'd be very happy to restrict it to China, Egypt, and maybe Persia and/or Greece. Say, Wu Zetian and Zhu Di (Yongle Emperor) for China, Sobekneferu and Seti I for Egypt, Darius the Great and Shahpur II for Persia, and Alexander plus, say, Solon or Cleisthenes for Greece. China, Egypt, and Persia are included for their very long history, with their multiple leaders representing multiple phases in their history (Wu Zetian representing the golden age of Imperial China and Zhu Di its late phase; Sobekneferu representing Middle Kingdom Egypt and Seti I New Kingdom Egypt, and Darius the Great representing Achaemenid Persia and Shahpur II representing Sassanid Persia--and you could substitute either one for Abbas I to represent Safavid Persia); Greece is included just so we can have Alexander and not-Alexander.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Agreed, especially since I don't really see what room there is to take England in a more industrial direction. I'm expecting that they'll give her persona a science leaning or something.

Science oriented England makes the most sense. I could also see Great Engineer points from other sources.
Honestly, I'm really envisioning them giving her abilities inspired by her husband, Prince Albert. I'm envisioning something to do with the Great Exhibition at the Crystal Palace that was really his idea.

My worry with China (assuming that's who you're talking about) is that we'll be left with five leaders (including both of Qin's personas) that will each interact with the rest of the Civ to a varying degree. The pursuit of synergy with other civ attributes can often leave the differences between playstyle in alternate leaders slim. However, at least one of China's leaders needs to be dramatically different just so there's some reason to play the same Civ for a third, fourth, or fifth time.

My guesses are these:
Qin the Unifier: Has something to do with incorporating tribal villages and barbarians into his empire.
Wu Zetian: Additional Amenities/Loyalty to cities when spies are placed in them.
Yongle: Something science or culture related? Anything to do with trade would be too similar to Kublai or his construction projects with current Qin Shi Huang.

Greece is included just so we can have Alexander and not-Alexander.

You make that sound like a bad thing.

I'd add India to that list as well only if they decide to keep it as one civ, and Gandhi always returns.

 

[fy00sh]

Qin the Unifier: Has something to do with incorporating tribal villages and barbarians into his empire.

i just had an ansolutely cursed idea for an ability while reading this. imagine: "upon clearing a barbarian camp or tribal village, founds a city on that tile". i think that would be an insta-delete from random AI leader pools lol
as for a more... likely ability, maybe something like "when meeting a tribal village, gain an inspiration in addition to the normal bonus; when clearing a barbarian camp, gain a eureka in addition to the normal bonus". i think that could synergize pretty well with the chinese inspo&eureka boosts, tho most of its impact would be early game

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Qin the Unifier: Has something to do with incorporating tribal villages and barbarians into his empire.
Wu Zetian: Additional Amenities/Loyalty to cities when spies are placed in them.
Yongle: Something science or culture related? Anything to do with trade would be too similar to Kublai or his construction projects with current Qin Shi Huang.

Since none of the new leaders/personas thus far have demonstrated whole new abilities, just derivations of existing features, I would guess that Qin the Unifier (hereafter known as UniQin) will steal that ability that lets Apostles and Boudicca convert barbarian units and make it more widely available to Chinese units.

Wu, I think, will have greater espionage defense, with a Culture burst every time a rival spy is killed or captured, as well as a free spy every time a new government tier is reached, or something like that.

Yongle might have a combined Science/Exploration ability that gives him a bonus to science per turn for every civ in which he has established a Trading Post and a burst for discovering new continents. Peter would be jealous.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

i just had an ansolutely cursed idea for an ability while reading this. imagine: "upon clearing a barbarian camp or tribal village, founds a city on that tile". i think that would be an insta-delete from random AI leader pools lol
as for a more... likely ability, maybe something like "when meeting a tribal village, gain an inspiration in addition to the normal bonus; when clearing a barbarian camp, gain a eureka in addition to the normal bonus". i think that could synergize pretty well with the chinese inspo&eureka boosts, tho most of its impact would be early game

I was thinking of something more like this: " Has a chance of receiving +1 population when clearing a barbarian camp or visiting a tribal village. That +1 population goes to the nearest city". Automatic city would be crazy indeed.

Wu, I think, will have greater espionage defense, with a Culture burst every time a rival spy is killed or captured, as well as a free spy every time a new government tier is reached, or something like that.

Classical Era spies? Black Queen Catherine would be jealous. Though it does make sense that she would need to get spies early at least by the Medieval Era.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I was thinking of something more like this: " Has a chance of receiving +1 population when clearing a barbarian camp or visiting a tribal village. That +1 population goes to the nearest city". Automatic city would be crazy indeed.


Classical Era spies? Black Queen Catherine would be jealous. Though it does make sense that she would need to get spies early at least by the Medieval Era.

A +1 pop would be good. A free city on the site of a barb camp has a highly likelihood of sucking if it is poorly located. On the other hand, giving a free settler would be too powerful. Either way, Qin would expand really really fast, especially on bigger maps. Giving +1 pop would be a good middle road. Another alternative would be a free worker. Make those barbarians build the Walls that keep barbarians out.

 

[AntSou]

On the other hand, giving a free settler would be too powerful. Either way, Qin would expand really really fast, especially on bigger maps. Giving +1 pop would be a good middle road. Another alternative would be a free worker. Make those barbarians build the Walls that keep barbarians out.

I like the idea of the free pop and/or free worker. It's simple, a bit boring, but not more so than Julius Caesar.

Free Pop from Tribal Village in addition to the usual reward (which can also be a pop). Gain a free Worker in your capital upon clearing a barbarian camp (or on the spot). That's a lot of production which can be saved towards Wonders. Plus, much cheaper chops.

 

[muttley]

Qin the Unifier production toward a settler or builder

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Another alternative would be a free worker. Make those barbarians build the Walls that keep barbarians out.

Would they still revolve his ability around builders? I can't see that especially with all the complaints that they would only come with 3 charges.

Gain a free Worker in your capital upon clearing a barbarian camp (or on the spot). That's a lot of production which can be saved towards Wonders. Plus, much cheaper chops.

But he won't have the ability to rush wonders with builders.

 

[DWilson]

The idea of Barb camps turning into cities reminds me of Civ Revolution

 

[AntSou]

But he won't have the ability to rush wonders with builders.

I forgot original Qin already revolves around builders, so it probably won't involve builders again.

He'd still be able to rush wonders by chopping woods though, which, if the workers are free, not only saves production but also time.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm still trying to figure out Qin's actual historic relationship with his "uncivilized" nomadic neighbors. Superficial internet research indicates he pursued a fairly typical "guard the frontier" style of warfare with the Xiongnu, while simultaneously reinforcing and expanding existing territorial walls into the Great Wall and transferring Qin populations to the north to make a persistent presence in the region. I haven't seen any indication that he induced the Xiongnu to fight for him, or evidence of an effort to enslave or indoctrinate them as Qin people. However, they were influenced culturally by China, unsurprisingly. This is not to say that whatever Firaxis is referencing for Qin's ability (per the first LP livestream) is not true, but may require a deeper understanding than standard pop history. Or perhaps Qin will end up with a totally different non-barbarian-oriented ability.

Interestingly, Qin's fight against the smattering of Xiongnu tribes seems to have caused them to coalesce into a larger confederated steppe empire that plagued later Chinese dynasties (and maybe turned into the Huns who also plagued India and Europe). The Xiongnu would make for a rather intriguing entry in some future iteration of Civ as an alternative to the Scythians (whom they may have been distantly related to, if theories about the Xiongnu having proto-Iranian-speaking early leadership are accurate).

 

[AntSou]

This is not to say that whatever Firaxis is referencing for Qin's ability (per the first LP livestream)

What was the reference?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm still trying to figure out Qin's actual historic relationship with his "uncivilized" nomadic neighbors. Superficial internet research indicates he pursued a fairly typical "guard the frontier" style of warfare with the Xiongnu, while simultaneously reinforcing and expanding existing territorial walls into the Great Wall and transferring Qin populations to the north to make a persistent presence in the region. I haven't seen any indication that he induced the Xiongnu to fight for him, or evidence of an effort to enslave or indoctrinate them as Qin people. However, they were influenced culturally by China, unsurprisingly. This is not to say that whatever Firaxis is referencing for Qin's ability (per the first LP livestream) is not true, but may require a deeper understanding than standard pop history. Or perhaps Qin will end up with a totally different non-barbarian-oriented ability.

He was successful in incorporating the Yue tribes in Southern China/Northern Vietnam, which is where I got more of that idea from, not the Xiongnu to the north.

Though to add a reference to the Xiongnu invasion what if they gave the Great Wall the same functions as in the Zombie mode, as in dealing damage to enemy units, under this Qin?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

What was the reference?

If I recall correctly, it was Ed Beach who mentioned that UniQin would have something to do with barbarians.

 

[Zaarin]

The Xiongnu would make for a rather intriguing entry in some future iteration of Civ as an alternative to the Scythians (whom they may have been distantly related to, if theories about the Xiongnu having proto-Iranian-speaking early leadership are accurate).

The lack of information on leaders and languages is a real problem for the Xiongnu. I think the strongest theories at present are that they had very early Iranian leadership and were probably Tungusic or Para-Mongolic. TBH as far as "Chinese barbarian states" go, I'd be much more interested in the Yuezhi (but then why not just have Kushan?), the Rouran Khaganate, Khitan/Great Liao, the Jurchens, or the very controversial Balhae (which no matter how you represent it is going to upset someone so...perhaps not).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The lack of information on leaders and languages is a real problem for the Xiongnu. I think the strongest theories at present are that they had very early Iranian leadership and were probably Tungusic or Para-Mongolic. TBH as far as "Chinese barbarian states" go, I'd be much more interested in the Yuezhi (but then why not just have Kushan?), the Rouran Khaganate, Khitan/Great Liao, the Jurchens, or the very controversial Balhae (which no matter how you represent it is going to upset someone so...perhaps not).

Modu Chanyu is at least as well attested as Tomyris.

 

[Zaarin]

Modu Chanyu is at least as well attested as Tomyris.

True, we do know a little about some leaders, but I don't think the information we have is enough to build a civ out of. I think there are more interesting and better attested steppe peoples (ideally with cities) to replace Scythia than the Xiongnu. Perhaps the most interesting thing about them is the possibility they were Yeniseian, which a tentative theory proposes may be related to the Na-Dene (Tlingit-Eyak-Athabaskan) languages of North America and which is otherwise very unlikely to see representation as modern Yeniseian speakers are Siberian reindeer herders. (Fun fact: the terms khan, khagan, and tengri probably originate in Yeniseian and spread from there to the Mongolic and Turkic peoples.)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

True, we do know a little about some leaders, but I don't think the information we have is enough to build a civ out of. I think there are more interesting and better attested steppe peoples (ideally with cities) to replace Scythia than the Xiongnu. Perhaps the most interesting thing about them is the possibility they were Yeniseian, which a tentative theory proposes may be related to the Na-Dene (Tlingit-Eyak-Athabaskan) languages of North America and which is otherwise very unlikely to see representation as modern Yeniseian speakers are Siberian reindeer herders. (Fun fact: the terms khan, khagan, and tengri probably originate in Yeniseian and spread from there to the Mongolic and Turkic peoples.)

Very interesting. That would make them distant relatives of the Navajo and Apache as well (who undertook an amazing late-stage migration from the Athabasca region to the Southwest US).

Finding a Yeniseian speaker would be an issue for the Xiongnu, as it was the language of their ruling class for much of their history.