Civilization VII Civs and Leaders Wishlist [Not a Prediction]

[notNamed]

I can't say I'm supportive of the idea of Jan Hus as a leader myself. He was no doubt an influential figure in Czech history with a great number of followers, yes, but he only campaigned for reform of the Catholic church, not for some sort of political goal (like Gandhi did when leading the Indians toward independence).

If we do need a Hussite figure leading Bohemia, I would propose George of Poděbrady, a king who followed the Hussite faith. He would not be a Hussite leader for Hussite leader's sake, either - he was a capable administrator who managed to restore the kingdom from the utter devastation it suffered during the Hussite Wars, he was a remarkable diplomat and he ruled Bohemia with at the time unusual religious tolerance, seeking peaceful relations between Hussites and Catholics in the kingdom.

As for Žižka, I would nominate him for Great General spot.

Ján Hus was not a political leader. He has a legacy in has-been Czechoslovakia but the legacy is making proper spelling hellishly hard, not that of a leader.
Žižka is a meme, pure and simple. You make him the Bohemian leader and you'll have a Hussite civ, not a Bohemian civ. Numero uno for romantic nationalism, historically Bohemian Bin Laden.

As far as Bohemian leadership goes you ought to start with Charles the 4th.
That's the most obvious choice for a leader who is well-known and historically accomplished.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm all for Dido's inclusion in future games, but her historicity is questionable at best (unless there's also other sources attesting to her existence).

The oldest references of her are about 500 years after the supposed founding of Carthage, by a Greek historian. It wasn't for about another 300 years that the Aeneid was written.

 

[Morningcalm]

Wow, I looked up Hojo Masako and I really, really like her as a leader for Japan. Not only was she behind most of Minamoto Yoritomo's successes, but she was actually recognized as "shogun" (!!!). The epithet "nun shogun" attached to her is also cool, and her conniving power plays pitting her enemies against each other would fit into Game of Thrones storylines quite easily.

Other female leaders I would like to see are Hatshepsut (Egypt), who was one of Egypt's greatest pharaohs, Amanirenas (Nubia), who defeated Augustus Caesar and forced him to make tax and border concessions, and Nur Jahan (India), a Mughal ruler who was essentially de facto ruler while her husband Jahangir was weakened and addled by addiction. She was an astute politician and champion of women's rights. Travelers to Mughal India remarked on Nur Jahan's control over her husband, and she essentially mandated that orders be approved by her. She also fought in battle and killed tigers in her spare time (and was apparently quite good at it). Puduhepa (Hittites) would also be a great female leader choice due to her influence (she ruled alongside her husband, like Justinian and Theodora years later), and Puduhepa could come with some diplomatic flavor. Taytu Betul (Ethiopia) was the wife of Menelik II and apparently was known to be the power behind the throne, and in the famous Battle of Adwa, "[t]he empress seemed to be the main architect of the battle" with her own contingent of around 5000 troops, and her command of provisional and medical operations during the battle, and because she commanded operations to prevent the Italian military access to potable water. In the words of an Italian count from that time, she "is a great lady, who perhaps in another milieu would have been a Christina of Sweden or a Catherine the Great.")

There are other great female rulers like Lady Six Sky and Seondeok, both of whom I championed in my Design your own Civ Thread in 2016, before Civ VI's expansions came out. I hope they eventually return to Civ, though I'd also be curious to see Firaxis represent other Korean and Maya rulers. I would also like to see Zenobia and Palmyra represented, and Yaa Asantewaa and Benin, though I acknowledge they might not be priorities given the many other civilizations to represent.

I think Himiko and Dido are fun, but they've been in Civilization before and have relatively scant records compared to some other female leaders. For variety's sake I think it would be cooler to see a nun shogun, a warrior queen blind in one eye, and a tiger-killing Mughal empress in the female leader roster.

I think I posted this elsewhere, but I'd also like to see Goths, Hittites, Judah, and Khazars in the game.

 

[Pedro P]

Anyone but Pedro II for Brazil, preferably Juscelino Kubitschek.
And in general I hope Brazil is a DLC civ, because devs tend to only pick one or two civs from each non-euro region at a time, so we are getting in the way of Incas and Aztecs in base game, which is kinda lame.
If we are doing alt leaders, Tupac Amaru for Inca. I don't think he should be the default, but as a second leader, it could be nice.

Czech/Bohemia, Armenia and Ghana/Akan for entirely new civs.
Would love to see the eternal Italy taboo to be broken. Other civs have overlaping territories, other civs have city state leaders leading whole unified nation.
Assyria and Siam/Thai should absolutely return.

Chinese Dinasties giving different units and bonuses depending on the leader.

A republic leader for Rome. Maybe Quintus Fabius Maximus.

 

[Xandinho]

Anyone but Pedro II for Brazil, preferably Juscelino Kubitschek.

Juscelino Kubitschek died in 1976, so he would be, if I'm not wrong, the most recent leader of the franchise. Although JK is probably the best choice for Brazilian leader after Pedro II, I'm not so convinced they would add someone so recent. I wouldn't mind having Pedro II again, but I can see them going to his father, Pedro I, or even his daughter, Isabel.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Juscelino Kubitschek died in 1976, so he would be, if I'm not wrong, the most recent leader of the franchise. Although JK is probably the best choice for Brazilian leader after Pedro II, I'm not so convinced they would add someone so recent. I wouldn't mind having Pedro II again, but I can see them going to his father, Pedro I, or even his daughter, Isabel.

Would Maria work, as in Maria the Mad?
I jokingly mentioned her as a dual leader of Portugal and Brazil for the NFP.

 

[Xandinho]

Would Maria work, as in Maria the Mad?
I jokingly mentioned her as a dual leader of Portugal and Brazil for the NFP.

Maybe, but I think her image is much more linked to Portugal than to Brazil.

By the way, I just noticed that Haile Selassie died in 1975, just one year before Juscelino Kubitschek. Therefore, the inclusion of the Ethiopian leader in Civ5 was closer to his year of death than the supposed inclusion of Brazilian leader would be at any point in the lifecycle of Civ7. But I also notice a tendency for them to move away from more recent leaders, notably post WWII, so I don't know...

 

[Patine]

Juscelino Kubitschek died in 1976, so he would be, if I'm not wrong, the most recent leader of the franchise

I think Indira Gandhi from Civ2 died in the very early '80's.

 

[AffineConstant]

The oldest references of her are about 500 years after the supposed founding of Carthage, by a Greek historian. It wasn't for about another 300 years that the Aeneid was written.

Yeah, from what I gather it's the only surviving account of such. But there's nothing fantastical about it, and circumstantial evidence totally supports the notion that some sort of rich and powerful noble, such as Dido, could and would go off to found a colony from their long successful middle eastern home city such as Tyre. That the story related is entirely plausible, with only perhaps a dramatic embellishment or two (very common for the age) shows it as an entirely plausible account of how Carthage was founded, even if we're so far missing any other direct physical evidence to back it up.

After all we're pretty sure Lucius Tarquinius was a real historical figure, likely the last king of Rome (as such). And while the story was certainly embellished over time, we can go back and find direct evidence of the Tarquins as the noble rulers of Rome, showing that ancient historical accounts in the area and time period can have an underlying accuracy even if the story gets some soap opera added over the centuries (just as the city of "Troy" was an actual major city during the time period and in the place the Iliad indicates, even if there wasn't some half god that totally killed like a thousand guys in a day bro it was totally sick you should've been there)

For "mythological" leaders we're quite sure didn't exist we can instead turn to figures such as "The Yellow Emperor" who first appeared in as part of a religious cult in China during the warring states. This is despite the character pairing for "Emperor" not even appearing in Chinese until 221 BC and the Qin dynasty. This is an actual problem with archaeology in China today, not the Yellow Emperor specifically but an over belief in texts and desperately trying to jam archaeological evidence into their narrative when it clearly doesn't fit.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, from what I gather it's the only surviving account of such. But there's nothing fantastical about it, and circumstantial evidence totally supports the notion that some sort of rich and powerful noble, such as Dido, could and would go off to found a colony from their long successful middle eastern home city such as Tyre. That the story related is entirely plausible, with only perhaps a dramatic embellishment or two (very common for the age) shows it as an entirely plausible account of how Carthage was founded, even if we're so far missing any other direct physical evidence to back it up.

After all we're pretty sure Lucius Tarquinius was a real historical figure, likely the last king of Rome (as such). And while the story was certainly embellished over time, we can go back and find direct evidence of the Tarquins as the noble rulers of Rome, showing that ancient historical accounts in the area and time period can have an underlying accuracy even if the story gets some soap opera added over the centuries.

For "mythological" leaders we're quite sure didn't exist we can instead turn to figures such as "The Yellow Emperor" who first appeared in as part of a religious cult in China during the warring states. This is despite the character pairing for "Emperor" not even appearing in Chinese until 221 BC and the Qin dynasty.

As I had already said, and clarified, "mythologized," lleaders, like Dido, Gilgamesh, Himiko, or even Hiawatha, are different than, "mthological," leaders, like Agamemnon, Arthur Pendragon, Romulus, the Yellow Emperor, Jimmu Tenno, Ayar Manco, etc. But, my point is, regardless of verified existence or or not, both sorts are far too scant in facts about them, and the former type fills in the vast gaps with myth, and thus both sorts get the same mythic feel and vibe to them.. That is why I feel both sorts should be avoided.

 

[pokiehl]

I think Dido is a great “character” in Civ. She no less belongs than any other number of leaders with uncertain historicity.

Moreover, I really liked having PHOENICIA in Civ 6 vs CARTHAGE. That was a pleasant surprise. I think Dido is a fine representative for Phoenicia and Carthage both, but on the other hand it would also be cool to see a new leader for Phoenicia.

I also think there’s enough design space to have BOTH Phoenicia and Carthage (much like the Greece/Macedon split). I think in that case, Hannibal would be a better choice for Carthage though.

 

[Navelgazer]

I think a lot of it comes from his contributions to the Space Race and how that would tie in to a Science Victory in-game.

This is the main reason I'm a supporter of Kennedy as the American leader. (Like, even though 100% of moon landings occurred during the Nixon administration, they're generally viewed more as Kennedy's accomplishment than anyone else's.) But additionally the "Camelot" era has a hold on the public consciousness in a way that most other Presidential Administration eras simply don't.

Someone who was willing to gamble global destruction over a tropical island is not remotely high in my books. In fact, I'm pretty sure he was the only U.S. President after WW2 to even directly make a nuclear threat, and not just obliquely say, "the option's not ruled off the table."

As for the Cuban Missile Crisis, there's a whole lot to unpack there, and I don't want to discount this aspect, but also, 1.) Cuba was not just "a tropical island." Arming it with nuclear missiles was absolutely meant as a threat to the U.S. (just as the prior arming of Italy and Turkey was meant as a threat to the USSR.) 2.) Kennedy went against advisors to avoid war, and successfully negotiated a de-escalation which is probably key to that threat not being made since.

Now, I think JFK still has the Vietnam War to answer for, which he may not have really started but which he certainly escalated. No historical figures are going to be simple, I don't think. Teddy Roosevelt basically created the Spanish-American War out of misinformation and yellow journalism because he wanted to prove how great his navy was - that's pretty awful, but for better or worse it's not how he's remembered. JFK is remembered for the space race, his own assassination, Camelot, and finding a peaceful solution to a global-annihilation-level conflict. How much some of those are warranted is certainly up for debate, but it's how the cultural memory has landed.

Juscelino Kubitschek died in 1976, so he would be, if I'm not wrong, the most recent leader of the franchise. Although JK is probably the best choice for Brazilian leader after Pedro II, I'm not so convinced they would add someone so recent. I wouldn't mind having Pedro II again, but I can see them going to his father, Pedro I, or even his daughter, Isabel.

Haile Selassie died in 1975, so one year earlier than Kubitschek, but also he was in Civ V, which came out 14 years ago.

 

[Patine]

Haile Selassie died in 1975, so one year earlier than Kubitschek, but also he was in Civ V, which came out 14 years ago.

But, as I said, there was Indira Gandhi who was assassinated in 1984 who appeared in Civ2, which came out in 1996.

 

[Patine]

I think Dido is a great “character” in Civ. She no less belongs than any other number of leaders with uncertain historicity.

I'm afraid I disagree with this. Leaders whom we know more about by myth and legend than fact seem jarring alongside historically attested figures.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think Dido is a great “character” in Civ. She no less belongs than any other number of leaders with uncertain historicity.

Moreover, I really liked having PHOENICIA in Civ 6 vs CARTHAGE. That was a pleasant surprise. I think Dido is a fine representative for Phoenicia and Carthage both, but on the other hand it would also be cool to see a new leader for Phoenicia.

I also think there’s enough design space to have BOTH Phoenicia and Carthage (much like the Greece/Macedon split). I think in that case, Hannibal would be a better choice for Carthage though.

I feel they are too similar and wouldn't necessarily want to see both, as civs. I don't think there's any problem with a Phoenician/Carthage civ having both as alternate leaders. I was kind of surprised they didn't go for Hannibal in the Leaders Pass.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I was kind of surprised they didn't go for Hannibal in the Leaders Pass.

Yeah, that is really surprising, since even Civ 5’s Carthage (which was Hannibal-free) still had a reference to him via the war elephant unique unit.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, that is really surprising, since even Civ 5’s Carthage (which was Hannibal-free) still had a reference to him via the war elephant unique unit.

Although, realistically, given the elephants were a one-off for shack value, Carthinigians should a unit representing their notorious reliance on mercenaries.

 

[pokiehl]

Yeah, that is really surprising, since even Civ 5’s Carthage (which was Hannibal-free) still had a reference to him via the war elephant unique unit.

Yeah, that was a real missed opportunity to not have him return in Civ 6 with a leader unique elephant unit. Hannibal used elephants in multiple battles outside of the Alps crossing (like at Cannae and Zama); there were some 300 war elephant stables in Carthage, which was a very big force. Notably, the peace treaty after Zama even saw the Romans forbidding the training of war elephants by Carthage.

The really interesting thing about Carthaginian war elephants is that the species went extinct before the end of Roman times.

They were apparently fairly small for elephants. They’re depicted on a lot of Carthaginian coins and have a distinctive ”hump” to their back.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Civ 6 with a leader unique elephant unit

Not the only missed opportunity from the Leader Pass related to unique units.

Nader Shah and no jazayerchi...

There were arguably some others who could have also benefited from that, but most cases worked pretty well with the existing Civs (Lizzy and the Sea Dogs, Sultan Saladin and the Mamluks...)

 

[Patine]

Yeah, that was a real missed opportunity to not have him return in Civ 6 with a leader unique elephant unit. Hannibal used elephants in multiple battles outside of the Alps crossing (like at Cannae and Zama); there were some 300 war elephant stables in Carthage, which was a very big force. Notably, the peace treaty after Zama even saw the Romans forbidding the training of war elephants by Carthage.

The really interesting thing about Carthaginian war elephants is that the species went extinct before the end of Roman times.

They were apparently fairly small for elephants. They’re depicted on a lot of Carthaginian coins and have a distinctive ”hump” to their back.

Still, in the broad history and many battles of Carthage over like 800 years, the elephants were a flash in the pan, and further solidify the annoying trope of stereotyping them as, "enemies of Rome," whereas the mercenary element was far broader and more defining of the Carthaginian military.