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civIV Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (RFRE)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by primordial stew, Aug 26, 2006.

  1. Jakob Safa

    Jakob Safa Chieftain

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    Also primordial stew, you didn'd sad anything about the mising changes in the map.
     
  2. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Auxillary Archer shouldnt be that hard (famous last words). For the Vandals, once by DVD-ROM drive is fixed I'll load up Rome:Barbarian Invasion to look at the Vandal units to try and find any art styles. If you could find a Vandal picture, that would be great as Rome:Barbarian Invasion isnt always the most accurate art wise.
     
  3. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    > map changes
    Neapolis and Croton should not have moved for many versions :confused:

    Anyway, they are in the correct placements now.


    > 3rd Punic War

    From Wikipedia:
    Code:
    Carthage lost Hispania forever, and it was reduced to a client state. A war indemnity of 10,000 talents was imposed, her navy was limited to 10 ships to ward off pirates, and she was forbidden from raising an army without Rome's permission. The Numidians took the opportunity to capture and plunder Carthaginian territory. Half a century later, when Carthage raised an army to defend itself from these incursions, it was destroyed by Rome in the Third Punic War. Rome on the other hand, by her victory, had taken a key step towards domination of the Mediterranean world.
    My approach was to focus on the conflict between Carthage and Numidia, as well as the disarmament. Keep them weak, and let the 3rd war happen naturally. Not completely historically correct, but not too bad for civIV.

    How about this:
    0) add a homeland_fortress to Carthage in the 275BC map
    1) add a 2nd smaller Hannibal Army once Utica is captured
    2) when the war ends:
    a. all military units are deleted
    b. Rome gets some cash :D
    c. Numida makes peace
    d. Carthage becomes a vassal
    e. the Scipio promotion goes away (was when capturing Utica)
    f. remove the homeland_fortress from Carthage
    3) On the 150BC turn (+/- 2 turns), Carthage declares war on Rome
    4) When the city of Carthage is captured any other cities also fall to Rome, thus eliminating Carthage.

    What will the Carthaginians be building during their vassal years? Surely they will build an army, but does it need to be restricted? What should not happen is they become a useful ally during this time!!

    And finally, does there need to be a scripted condition that ends the 2nd war? One option is Hannibal is defeated, but what if he retreats to the safety of the homeland_fortress in Carthage? It can't be that, but knowing that all Carthaginian units will be killed when peace is reached, why fight the battle of Zama???? Maybe a 2nd Hannibal is needed that is immobile, and then the condition is defeating immobile Hannibal (+ some immobile support units to make sure they don't abandon him)?

    And then there probably needs to be something added to make sure peace cannot be achieved in any other way..... hmm.... <scratches head>


    All of this detail will have to be explained to the player somehow. I suppose the "RFRE Concepts" needs to be part of this patch.


    > I complitly destroied Hannibals forces in first battle.

    It's a delicate balance of how large to make the army. Too large and it may end the game, and too small and this important part of history is missed.

    Having an army tear through your home country should be pretty dismaying for most players since the AI will only very very rarely accomplish something like this. But IMHO it is an important historical detail that should be present in most games, and so we need to work to that end!

    1 way to make it better suited to the player is to handle it similar to the supplemental Germanic war code. Sum up the total Roman (mobile) strength and generate an army based on that.

    I can add that too. It make take some tries to find values that work well.


    > Gaul

    Another way to handle Gaul is just like how the Gallic Empire defeat is handled, only X number of cities have to be captured and then all the rest will fall.
     
  4. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    An idea for Hannibals army is to use both the Germanic code for the army and to put a 'fear' promotion on Roman troops so they have a negative strength modifier against Carthage units if Hannibal/Elephants are in the stack and/or if Rome hasnt had a victory against Carthage in Italy in the last X turns. The later option might be a bit memory intensive considering all off the other functions having to occur. This idea might be better suited the the Barbarian Invaisions.

    I have found where the Soundtrack to Rome: Total War is. Unfortunatly, it is in a Video CD format and it isnt set up for easy editing. If you want me to go ahead, I might be able to find a program to edit it.
     
  5. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    It's built in already. Elephants were certainly a major problem to the legionary formation until they moved to the manipular organization. The 1st available legion in the game will likely get trampled (ie during the 1st Punic War), but all the others were trained so get +20% vs elephants. This makes combat close to even between (7+20%=8.4 vs 9.0) them to reflect that Carthage didn't have an advantage here any longer.

    I've never tried to edit audio files so I can't help there.
     
  6. Jakob Safa

    Jakob Safa Chieftain

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    The only thing about 3rd Punic war I would like to change is this:

    From wikipedia:
    So instead of giving Rome some gold after the war ends, Carthage should be giving some gold per turn to the romans, an amount big enough to not allow Carthage to build any big army.

    A new immobile Hannibal army and homeland_fortress in Carthage is a great idea, to prevent player from making peace with Carthage maybe somehow preventing diplomacy between Rome and Carthage.

    About Gaul:

    Until Vercingetorix, Gaul was not united in war against Rome. Some Gallic tribes were friends of the Rome and some were fighting agings Rome. So maybe splitting Gallic tribes in friendly Gallic tribes and hostile Gallic tribes. After defeating hostile Gallic tribes, all of the Gaul is united under Vercingetorix and Romans have to capture Alesia and defeat Vercingetorix there. Then the Gaul is finely under Roman control.
     
  7. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    @Jakob Safa: If the Gauls are split, then the unfriendly gauls will be outmached and it will reduce the likeliness of the gauls possibly invading you because there is a friendly buffer state. I dont know much about the gauls, but werent they alot like pericles greece? They might might amongst themselves but when there was an outside enemy they would generaly band together.

    @pstew: I managed to convert the audio files into an mp3 and will start editing them today I hope. It might take a while considering the music is lumped into one file and is amost a hour and a half long.
     
  8. Jakob Safa

    Jakob Safa Chieftain

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    No, the Gauls did not fight together against Rome until the Vercingetorix united them. This was mainly because Caesar defeated Helvetii before invading Gaul and German tribes were invading Gaul in the north, so some Gallic tribes hoped that Rome could defend them against the Germans. Only after Caesar defeated German tribes, all of the Gallic tribes were ready to join Vercingetorix.
     
  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I yield to your knowledge, I know very little about the Gauls. I still feel that the gauls should be united in one faction becasue then they wont be as much of a pushover for Rome.

    Pstew: I finished the track editing ahead of schedule. Once I figured out how to use Audacity it was fairly easy. Since there are 43 files, I think it excedes my upload space. I would post it on a hosting site, but becasue the R:TW soundtrack is private property, I dont think Creative Assembly (the makers) would be thrilled about me giving it to the world. Would you be open to me e-mailing it to you? If you dont want me to do that, it is fine. I could probably find a workaround.
     
  10. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    Hmmmm... some difficult requests!

    Yes, some gpt would be right, but I'm not sure how to make it work. It seems to me that civs can only give surplus gpt, so what happens if there isn't any? Possibly we just do like was done in civIII for Attila and give them a building that has -20gpt, and then give the Romans +20gpt. This is "pre tax" money, but at least it puts some cost on them. It won't show up in the finance screen, but it will in the treasury ;)


    Splitting Gaul could be done, but I'm not convinced it would make any difference :/ In the end you still would need to conquer most of Gaul.

    Many things could be coded up to little effect on the game. For example the Galatians migrated to where they start the game around... 250BC? Something like that, the point being they should not be there at game start. This wouldn't be hard to do, but doing it wouldn't make any difference.

    Many of the civil war battles are not represented in the game. The Caesarians vs Pompeians was a major battle with near 100,000 legionairs per side. Certainly worth mention, but probably no good way to make it happen.

    1 detail I would like to add is Sextus Pomey's pirates blockading Roma, but that capability wasn't added till BtS.



    I'll get coding on the Punic changes.


    > R:TW soundtrack is private property

    Certainly is, but is it ok to "sample" part of it? Like maybe just using your favorite 30 second clip?
     
  11. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I'll send you the best of it. I also have some 'fanfare' clips that might be nice to use for diplo tracks or python events. I was able to upload only one track. I was thinking about this for the main menu. If you like it or want to see more, I can upload the full file to the database.

    EDIT: As long as you acknowledge who made the soundtrack and you dont charge money for it, along with not going 'Here's a soundtrack, everybody download it'. I dont really think Creative Assembly will care. Many mods do the same thing and besides, I bought the game legaly so unless they feel like being selfish, they dont really mave much to complaign about and if they dont want it up, we can remove it from the mod.
     
  12. wthoma2

    wthoma2 Chieftain

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    Hey i'm itching to try the mod out, but rapid share won't let me download it. Can I get it somewhere else?

     
  13. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Pstew: My DVD-ROM drive is finaly fixed so I am able to take a look at the mod. The first things I noticed are art-related.
    Armoured Javilineer has no skin for the shield so it appears pink.
    Why is the armoured slinger using the archer model? If you need a skin for it I can make it.
    Devotio has the wrong animation.
    Dromons has no skin for most of the unit.
    Falxman has wrong animation.
    Surena has wrong animation.
    Tribus Gothia is a red blob.

    As a suggestion, you might want to rename Pikemen to something else. Most peole associate pikemen with the middle ages.

    I am thinking about doing a AAR with RFRE in the 'Stories and Tales' forum. Any opinions on if I should start on the 256BC or 200AD map?
     
  14. areon

    areon Chieftain

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    When I got to Hannibal I almost crapped myself :sad: but luckily his slow movements allowed me to assemble enough ballistas/legios to take him down. At that point half of my army was in northern Italy and half in Iberia. Hannibal had managed to take 2 cities before his death. His appearance kept me wary for the Helveticii incident but I have a question. Is Gaul supposed to conquer them? After I killed their raiders they must not have had any units left because I didn't go north and they got wiped out. I saw that Gaul was programmed to be at war with them. I'm now at the servi rebellion and am hesitant to play if more of these events keep showing up...I haven't been able to keep pace with my rfre civ iii games :cry: Very enjoyable I fired up the 200 ad scenario but there are so many units to order around my comp will explode.
     
  15. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    > only 10 downloads
    Errr.. seems Rapidshare made some changes, I can't even delete that file :/ Anywho, here is the new link: http://rapidshare.com/files/164075426/RFRE.beta1p5a.7z.html

    I created a "collector's account", which isn't supposed to have any DL limit.

    > art problems
    I changed the KFMs (animation) for the Devotio and Surena, and fixed the spelling error (men/man) for the Tribus Gothica. The Falxman unit was done starting with a pikeman, so it is what it is.

    > comp explode
    Yeah, that first turn takes some time. Part of being a Roman Emperor is being an administrator! I just load up the build queues the first turn so the lower production cities don't come up again. It's sort of like those "civitas" turns in civIII :/

    Do suffer through it though. The "Crisis" will certainly be new coming from civIII. It starts off with minor border conflicts (Pictii, Dacians, and Scythians), then the economy crashes (no bailouts!), then the Gallic Empire and Palmyrene Empires secede, the Goths do some raiding, and maybe a war with the Germanics as well.

    The Franks and Goths settle, but that is near the end. No Huns or Vandals, etc... yet.


    > Helveticii
    Gaul does get a very good initial opinion of Tueton and Cimbri tribes, so that will make conflict less likely, but there's nothing to stop it if they want it.

    > pace with civ iii
    Note that the massive conflict vs Aegyptus isn't necessary, so that will recover some turns vs the civIII timeline. However the events add time.. What we all need to work together on is balance. After you've played to 1AD (or so) a couple times (to get a feel for the game) please suggest some changes ;)

    I must have played civIII 100 times (some game were short) starting with version .83 all the way up to 1.32 (and still there are changes!), but I do understand why Pink himself didn't endlessly play test his own work :/
     
  16. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I think a new falxman was created and uses the Samurai animations. At least that is what it was when I had the Falxman in my mod.
    Also, what are you planning next for the mod? If you are planning balencing, new features, or something else, I would sort of like to know so I know what I should focus on.
     
  17. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    Is it the same as the Thracian falxman? Komotai is the folder name.

    I need to make the "Punic" changes, and after that I'm going to push into the 300-400 period.

    Balance will be on going as people provide feedback.
     
  18. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    What are you looking for in the 300-400 period? I have a book about that time and I can find alot of good python events. How exactly do you plan to handle barbarian invaisions? You might be able to handle it in the same way you did the Teuton/Cimbri invaision, but can it handle multiple civs doing that? At one time the Alans/Sarmatians/Vandals/Visigoths/Goths/ect... were all rampaging around Europe.

    A few ideas I have based on Rome:Barbarian Invasion:
    Migrating tribes could have special units that disapear once they have X number of cities.
    When a Migrating tribe conquers a city, they have the option to take double the amount of gold but all the buildings are destroyed and the populations is cut in half. The tribes doesnt take the city, instead, the city becomes barbarian and gets a few basic units.
    Migrating tribes might only be able to do this until a certaint time. This can show how they just sort of rampaged around.
    This is jsut off the top of my head. If you sort of like it I can finalize it more. Also, should I go ahead and finalize by 'Fall Counter' Buildings that are on the previous page.

    I think it is the same Falxman. It wont hurt much to check the animation.



    After playing 200AD scenario up until 270, I have noticed a few things:
    1. Does the Python only go until 300AD? I am asking this becasue I am planning on doing a AAR in the 'Stories and Tales' forum and if the Python only goes until 300AD, I am going to be playing from the 275 BC map.
    2. Could the revolt and discontent messages be a popup as opposed to a white message in the upper left hand corner of the screen? It doesnt show up in the event history and it is really easy to miss.
    3. As opposed to leaving Pax Romana and going straight to barter, could it switch to Coinage or a new civic? The economy may have collapse, but not that much.
    4. I saw the germans fielding Ionian Cavalry and the Armenians fielding Iberian Mounted Javilineers.
    5. Pikemen need rethinking. I dont know what exactly the design purpouse of this unit is. Regardless, they need a better name and maybe weaken them slightly, I dont think they should be stronger than Miles Auxilia.
    6. Archers need a higher withdraw chance. At the least, they should have the same withdraw chance as Velites.
    7. Why are Cohortes Equitata Militatia only recruitable in 'Celtic' areas?
    8. For the Gauls, Bretons, Germanics, and to an extent the Dacians, Chuggi put out alot of good unit art for them. I'll try and find the links.
    Warriors:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291013
    Spearmen:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=258169
    Axemen:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273383

    I went through the units and made a list of the units that (I feel) need new art and/or pedia.
    Unit-Model
    Armoured Slinger-Use slinger model
    Bellator- A bunch of wild sword-swinging barbarians?
    Bellatores Loricati- Not critical at all, but the unit looks to medieval.
    Eques- SOmething more 'civilized' than a bare-chested guy on a horse. Reskin of keshik?
    Galatian Bellator-Aranor made an alternate Galatian that I feel would look better as a warrior.
    Gallic Cavalry- I dont really know. I am planning on re-skining it to look like the noble cavalry in RTW.
    Incursor-Same reasons as Bellatores Loricati. I was thinking a mob of barbarian spearmen and light cavalry.
    Javilineer-reskin of skirmisher. I dont feel it should look as African.
    Miles Celticus-One of the units in the above links would look nice.
    Pelast-Same reason as Javilineer.
    Sacred Band- Carthage Pikemen/Spearmen from Danrells Carthage.
    Sagittatius- Greek Archer/Longbow from Danrells Greeks.
    Slinger-warlords model.
    Vexilatio/Eques Legionares- I might be able to skin them although a new model would be very nice. I'll put in a unit request.

    The following units I feel need a new pedia along with a source if I could find one easily, mainly for refrence for the pedias:
    Bellator
    Bellatores ARmenia
    Chariot Archer
    Praetorian
    Incursor
    Ionian Cavalry
    Legio Armenius
    Light Cavalry
    Clibanarius -I though Clibanrii were heavy/medium shock/missile cavalry
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clibanarii
    Praesidium Sasanidum
    Praesidium Franki and Gothi
    Servus Seditiones
    Skuda
    Tarabostes
    Targiatus
    Theoderich-I assume you are refering to Theoderich the Great
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great
    Tribus... Units
     
  19. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    > Migrating tribes could have special units that disapear once they have X number of cities.

    Interesting... yeah, that might be part of it. Certainly a problem in civIII was getting the barabarians rolling, and the next was trying to stop them :lol: Maybe a simpler way is to use a special promotion instead of different units. Hmmm....

    I need to work up a decent understanding of how this is going to play out... Maybe a good approach is to break it down by tribe, and all the important happenings with them. A tricky part is the very fluid alliances.. and the lack of suitable Wikipedia articles! Probably key details are buried in articles on some battle or person that I haven't found yet :/


    > 8. Chuggi units
    This is the Iron Age, so no clubs, and there are decent spearmen already. I suppose 1 or 2 more axemen might find a home. Maybe as raiders?

    > 7. Why are Cohortes Equitata Militatia only recruitable in 'Celtic' areas?
    Due to their cavalry contingent. By 200AD they are of limited use and are effectively replaced by the more expensive Vexilatio.

    For the Vexilatio art, I think the shield should have the corners chopped off. That would be better. I tried just making the corners alpha channel, but it didn't work out like it did with removing the "horse hair" from the Roman helmets.

    > 6. archers
    They get 50%, and velites 55% :/ The Romans used few archers, so they can't be too good.

    > 5. pikeman
    Yeah, a poor name. I've renamed them to the generic "imperial praesidum" (as in Imperial Era, they're not used by the Romans). Maybe 7 is a better strength? Most civs gets a custom version.

    > 4. I saw the germans fielding Ionian Cavalry and the Armenians fielding Iberian Mounted Javilineers.
    Yeah, they soon get the Eques Barbarache, which is stronger, but requires horses. Ionian doesn't. I suppose they could have a copy of the Ionian with different art.

    The Iberian MJ doesn't have too many restrictions on it. I just think of them as mercenaries showing up sometimes.

    > 3. economic collapse
    The only way to work out if it's appropriate is looking at how the Romans fare during the Crisis. Balance (unit cost + strength, production bonuses, upkeep, etc...) also matter, but basically commerce = army for the Romans due to their expensive upkeep. My balancing of the scenario is based on a legion deployment map from 60AD (not too much happened in the interim), and auxillary formations from the period (smaller units were combined). Based on those 2 things the Roman military should be ballpark it's historical strength. To survive the crash some units (eg balistas) can go, and many economic building have to be created. Many cities can build wealth (eg no point in improving cities that will secede soon). With that there will be a dip, but a STRIKE should be avoidable. Once combat starts you army will likely shrink some so that will bring down costs ;)

    > 2. important messages
    Yes, I agree. Do you want popups all the time though? I did try to modify the mainscreen, but it didn't work unless used with a widescreen monitor :/ I need to figure out why... maybe printing $boo gets padded with whitespace or something non-visual? I'll look into that again.

    > 1. 300AD
    Parts of it go further, but sometime soon the trade routes will all double in value, so there will suddenly be an unintended amount of gold.. It's something in the XML I believe, sort of like CommerceChangeDoubleTimes for buildings, but globally for trade routes.


    > Eques
    Certainly! That unit doesn't get used except during the Social War currently. Really though it should have a better graphic and be buildable in the Italian cities prior to the Age of Augustus?? In civIII the "Eques Socii" (Italian allied cavalry) was pretty lame, so I never bothered with it in civIV. It is accurate to have them available though.


    > Pedia
    It's a mix of TAM, download database postings, civIII RFRE text, and some I've added (eg Vexilatio).

    Consider these "to do someday". Instead I'd think adding the "RFRE Concepts" section should take priority. The first task there is finding out how to edit the pedia to add a new section.
     
  20. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    If you are looking for more information, a good book that is somewhat light is John Julius Norwich's Byzantium: The Early Centuries. There is also a good book called 'Fall of Rome' or something like that. My library is closed currently so I cant go find the book. When in doubt, there is always Gibbons The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. <laugh>
    I should be able to put together a timeline by the end of the week of important events. The book I mentioned before that I cant really remember actualy has a timeline and some very nice maps built in. I think the name of the author was Peter.

    REsponse to your posts:
    1>Eques: I think they should be buildable by Rome. IIRC, Rome did make use of allied Cavalry in the Early Republic.
    1>:I'll just wait on doing an AAR. I might get it done over winter break when I have alot of time.
    2>: I dont think having popups for stating that the revolt has occured would be that bad. At least you then know what happened as opposed to an 'AACK!!!!!!!' moment if you didnt notice the text.
    3>Okay. I tried to improve my cities first. I only managed to survive when I realized Munitors cost me upkeep so I deleted them.
    4>I was just wondering. I didnt think it was that strange that Armenia might be fielding mercenaries, but Ionian Cavalry in Germania was strange becasue hadnt Ionia been wiped out by either Mithraides or Rome?
    5>A variation of praesidium would be good. Reducing strength and cost would be good but give them a city defense bonus. The Roman Army was less effective than before, but it was still the best in the Mediterainian.
    6>Sorry, I must have gotten withdraw bonus for balista and velites mixed up. Archers, regardless of how good they are should have a larger withdraw chance than javilins because archers enguage the enemy from much farther away.
    7&8> I was just wondering and offering ideas. Have you considered PAKing the art files? There is a tutorial on how to PAK art files around here and it will help reduce loading times.

    Here is my 'rough' timeline with possible effects:
    300-ish: Arianism is founded.
    Effect: Arianism doesnt get a holy city but spreads using invisible missionaries so you cant really stop it.

    300 to reign of Arcadius and Honorius: Empire is united.
    Effect: Most/biggest cities in each empire gain the 'United Empire' Building that grants a few bonus's.

    378: Tervingi and Greuthingi Goths under Fritigern invade and defeat the Roman Army at Adrianople
    Effect: ERE looses all Comitatus or all non-limitaini troops and goths gain a large army in Illyricum, Dalmatia, Greece, and Thrace.

    410: Goths sack Rome, settle in Northern Italy as Foederati
    Effect: WRE cam now recruit Foederati in Northern Italy.

    429(?): Vandals take North Africa and Visigoths take Spain.
    Effect: NA and Spain switch sides to Vandals and Visigoths.

    435(?): Flavius Aetius siezes power.
    Effect: WRE gains a small production and gold bonus.

    453: In your words, Flagellum Dei!
    Effect: Obvious.

    460(?): ERE Emperor Zeno authorizes invasion of NA by the Barbarian General Aspar and Basiliscus. Invaision fails. Massive hatred of Barbarians, numerous pogroms. Zeno has civil war with Basiliscus. Zeno wins but leaves WRE to its fate.
    Effect: Small part of ERE Army is destroyed, ERE rebels (barbarians) spawn, unrest in Empire. Any city with 'Gothic/Steppe Tribes Indigenous People' goes into revolt (returns to ERE control) and spawns a few low-level barbarian units.(I am not completly sure about this event. It may be too big)

    476: Fall of Rome.
    Effects: Rome dissapers, replaced with Goths.

    490AD: Zeno bribes Theodoric to invade Goths.
    Effects: Goths in Italy experiance a few turns of revolts to show Theodoric invading them.

    After this I dont remember as much, with the exception of ERE fortunes improve under Anastasius and Justinian. I'll get a more detailed timeline later. What sort of events are you looking for? Also, how much do you want the event to dictate the game?
     

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