Rather than debate the merits of individual civilizations, I think that Mishto had the right idea with the map that demonstrated spaces and interactions. We have to look at a few different things when making these decisions: 1. Which civs were historically important 2. Which civs interacted with other civs, and when 3. Where is there room, and where should there be room? The map Mishto posted included big open spaces in Asia Minor and to the east. Parthia, Pontus, Lydia, and maybe even Bactria would all fit there, if they would deserve to be in the game. Here's Rhye's list: Egypt Babylonia Phoenicia Hittites Israel Celts Athens Sparta Persia Macedonia Carthage Rome Huns Byzantium Etruria (not playable, minor nation) Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation) Independent (not playable, minor nation) Independent2 (not playable, minor nation) It's based on the 18-civ limit. Are we sticking with that?