Sure they do, in the sense that "discipline problem" is catchall term to describe anything that could either hurt team morale or distract the team from the business at hand, which is winning football games. Protests, whether justified or not, are a distraction.
[RD] Colin Kaepernick
- Thread starter civvver
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Sure they do, in the sense that "discipline problem" is catchall term to describe anything that could either hurt team morale or distract the team from the business at hand, which is winning football games. Protests, whether justified or not, are a distraction.
MilesGregarius
Half-baked Renegade
I had no problem with the Steelers cutting ties with Santonio. The Steelers have always been fairly straight-laced: embarrass the team or have a run in with the law and you get the boot (see Bam Morris, among others.) What got me was not holding Roethlisberger to the same standard.
I get that a franchise QB is a different animal, but if part of your brand image is winning "the right way," choosing expediency over honor subverts that image. Seeing as the Steelers haven't won a SB since the last incident, while ceding the moral high ground (we were definitely the bad guys in XLV,) I think it was a bad business decision.
See above. The Steelers cut ties with Holmes in 2010, with Morris in 1996, before either were convicted of anything. Never heard anyone pity them for being tossed without being given a fair trial.
I didn't say lock Roethlisberger up or shut down the NFL. I said I choose to no longer patronize their product.
Or are you suggesting I am obligated to support them until he is convicted?
What crime has Kaepernick been convicted of? I find his lack of job offers both suspect and hypocritical, but it is entirely within the owners' rights not to employ the man.
Just as it is entirely within my rights to never again patronize American football.
Lexicus
Deity
Though I have to admit seeing black men labelled as 'discipline problems' is hardly new.
metalhead
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Trevor Siemian. Blake Bortles. Brian Hoyer. Brock Osweiler. Mike Glennon. Josh McCown. All are worse QBs than Kaep, all will begin the season as starting QBs this year.
Kaep's passer rating was 90.2 last year on one of the worst 2 or 3 teams in the league, in 11 starts. That ranked 17th in the league. His 2015 was admittedly terrible, but his rating in 2014 was passable, and 2012 and 2013 were both very good years for him.
Fact is, Kaepernick is not terrible. He's a mediocre QB with ridiculous athletic ability. Given how many mediocre, bad, and terrible QBs get starting jobs in the NFL, there is no reasonable football argument to make that he should be unemployed. And the whole "distraction" angle is silly - an NFL locker room is extremely diverse. Handling distractions and getting along with other players is part of the job, and players manage to do just fine with it. This is purely about owners not wanting to upset a small portion of their fan base, being too chicken to improve their teams because they might take a PR hit. Of course, they will also burnish their image with others, which is the whole point here - it is clear which fans they value more.
metalhead
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If one is not serving on a jury, there is zero reason to ever believe someone is "innocent until proven guilty."
TheMeInTeam
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Isn't the overwhelming majority of the "distraction" factor from Kaep his continued presence in news/coverage? I'm curious how ESPN and other sports news outlets chose to latch onto this topic in particular. Someone must have had the foresight to see the amount of nonsense they could get from it. Lots of clickbait.
MilesGregarius
Half-baked Renegade
And a documented, high profile pattern of ill-advised, if not illegal, behavior doesn't constitute a distraction or a threat to "team morale?"
Not if they are talented. Like I said, the more talented you are, the more you can get away with without jeopardizing your career.
Sure, but then you can no longer claim to be a rational human being.
civvver
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Bortles apparently fighting off Chad Henne for his job. So even that raises eyebrows, ok maybe they stick with their own draft pick in Bortles, but why not bring in a completely different player to push him for it?
Idk man it just sounds fishy, but like TMIT said, unless we knew behind the scenes what Kaep was asking for, we'll never really know for sure. It is interesting I heard on a radio program that the nfl players association has offered Kaepernick assistance and he has refused. What that assistance was or what his refusal means who knows. Maybe he is indeed washed up and knows it and just trying to go out with a bang.
metalhead
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I take it OJ was innocent of the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, then? Or are you willing to be less categorical with your statement?
warpus
In pork I trust
Ok so what's the big deal?
This is in America, isn't it? Where everybody is free to stand or sit as they please? Because of freedom? That's what I thought anyway..
Not everybody follows American football btw
Light Cleric
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I don't know that this needs to be said but I don't really care that he kneeled for the anthem, although I think he did done possibly the worst possible job managing the aftermath from a PR perspective. I see people say "you can express your opinion but that's not the time" and, although I really think a lot of them don't mean it, to me that kinda translates to "you can spread your message just not where it would actually be received" which kinda defeats the point of a message. The exception would be Miami, with their sizable population of Cuban refugees, taking umbrage at his comments on Castro, because I can't really tell you not to get offended when someone praises a place you literally risked your life to escape.
First, I think we need to look at how good he actually is: to delve into the advanced metrics, Football Outsiders had him ranked as the 6th worst starting QB last year. Some of his basic stats may look good, but others were pretty bad, his completion percentage was under 60%(which is bad for an NFL QB). Also, he somehow had a lower YPA than Sam Bradford, who had to release the ball in about 1/10th of a second every snap because he his offensive line was a bunch of traffic cones in Vikings jerseys(I realize this is insulting to traffic cones). This is where people like Richard Sherman do more harm than good when they say he's "better than a lot" of the dudes starting. There are starters he's better than (Bortles is horrible lol), but if you go team by team and compare them there's not many. And by compare, I mean compare the current Kaepernick to the current players, not the Kaepernick lingering in our memories from years ago.
If you want to go back to the eye test: force yourself to watch that "football game" they played against the Bears, who are not exactly a good football team. The one where went 1-5 with more sacks taken(5) than passing yards (4). The conditions weren't great, but somehow Matt Barkley managed to not be completely embarrassing.
This is not that rare to happen to quarterbacks when the league figures them out and they can't adjust. Just to grab an example off the top of my head, anymore remember Marc Bulger? Remember how Marc Bulger was a really good QB for about 4-5 years , went to a couple Pro Bowls? Remember how he got a contract extension and promptly fell off a goddamn cliff and got benched for...Google tells me Trent Green?
Having said all that, yes, if he wants to be a backup, he should be, because look at the scrubs that are on teams right now. I hear people say "you have to run a different offense for him". But can running a half-ass version of an offense for Kaepernick really be worse than trying and failing to run your normal offense with Clipboard Jesus or Matt Cassel? Remember, though, after Richard Sherman talked Kaepernick up, Seattle went and signed the corpse of Austin Davis, so I think it's fair to ask if Kaepernick wants to be a backup or not.
tl;dr: Yes he should be on a roster but people massively overstate his case because they look at what he was, not what he is.
First, I think we need to look at how good he actually is: to delve into the advanced metrics, Football Outsiders had him ranked as the 6th worst starting QB last year. Some of his basic stats may look good, but others were pretty bad, his completion percentage was under 60%(which is bad for an NFL QB). Also, he somehow had a lower YPA than Sam Bradford, who had to release the ball in about 1/10th of a second every snap because he his offensive line was a bunch of traffic cones in Vikings jerseys(I realize this is insulting to traffic cones). This is where people like Richard Sherman do more harm than good when they say he's "better than a lot" of the dudes starting. There are starters he's better than (Bortles is horrible lol), but if you go team by team and compare them there's not many. And by compare, I mean compare the current Kaepernick to the current players, not the Kaepernick lingering in our memories from years ago.
If you want to go back to the eye test: force yourself to watch that "football game" they played against the Bears, who are not exactly a good football team. The one where went 1-5 with more sacks taken(5) than passing yards (4). The conditions weren't great, but somehow Matt Barkley managed to not be completely embarrassing.
This is not that rare to happen to quarterbacks when the league figures them out and they can't adjust. Just to grab an example off the top of my head, anymore remember Marc Bulger? Remember how Marc Bulger was a really good QB for about 4-5 years , went to a couple Pro Bowls? Remember how he got a contract extension and promptly fell off a goddamn cliff and got benched for...Google tells me Trent Green?
Having said all that, yes, if he wants to be a backup, he should be, because look at the scrubs that are on teams right now. I hear people say "you have to run a different offense for him". But can running a half-ass version of an offense for Kaepernick really be worse than trying and failing to run your normal offense with Clipboard Jesus or Matt Cassel? Remember, though, after Richard Sherman talked Kaepernick up, Seattle went and signed the corpse of Austin Davis, so I think it's fair to ask if Kaepernick wants to be a backup or not.
tl;dr: Yes he should be on a roster but people massively overstate his case because they look at what he was, not what he is.
caketastydelish
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Honestly I kind of wish we got him as a backup. Not because he's good but because preseason games have proven that Austin Davis is terrible. Kaep might be better than that. Still, Metalhead is wrong as usual.
BirraImperial
Pura Vida!
I think it's a combination of the 2...He's a mediocre QB that could play as a backup, but he probably isn't willing to take the pay cut and compete for a starting job...He's also a liability in the sense that his political protests have enraged many fans around the League and no team is willing to deal with the potential backlash...If he was really talented, then perhaps a few teams with QB problems might take the chance, but that's not the case...
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
All better QB than CK. They can manage the offense the team runs. Kaepernick cannot.
J
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Yeah no I don't think the Texans gave a 2nd round pick to the Browns to take Osweioer off their hands because he's any good
Also, Josh McCown is literally starting because he is not very good, the Jets are trying to be horrible so they can daft a QB to screw up in 2018
Mike Glennon gets credit for being the first giraffe to play QB but wow is he horrible, he couldn't get off the bemch even when the aforementioned McCown was in Tampa
Also, Josh McCown is literally starting because he is not very good, the Jets are trying to be horrible so they can daft a QB to screw up in 2018
Mike Glennon gets credit for being the first giraffe to play QB but wow is he horrible, he couldn't get off the bemch even when the aforementioned McCown was in Tampa
caketastydelish
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Is 'giraffe' a reference to height? In that case, I'm not sure about your assertion that Mike Glennon is "the first giraffe to play QB" when you have Osweiler in that very same post. In fairness, you butchered his spelling, so perhaps he's not fresh on your memory. I also find it interesting because your description of Mike Glennon's performance is also very similar to Osweiler's. Mike Glennon is, at least on paper, a short term solution. Whether the Bears should have sacrificed that much to get Trubisky is neither here or there, but I'd say that implies they see him as their man. Speaking of which, the ONLY time I'd be hesitant to put out a rookie QB is if the offensive line is horrible. Even veterans can get injured (I don't mean emotionally injured) behind weak o-lines. As far as "he's going to lose and we don't want him to lose" that's such a childish mentality. The only way to get better is by actually playing. Blake Bortles, for example, had too long of a starting QB career but keeping him for a year or two (or maybe even three) as your starter is valid. They just should have moved on.
In any case, Osweiler, from my understanding, will have almost 100 million dollars before his 30th birthday while we work crappy average jobs to make a fraction of that much, and we pretend we're above him on a video game internet forum. He's probably laughing at us as well, but only if he knew about us.
In any case, Osweiler, from my understanding, will have almost 100 million dollars before his 30th birthday while we work crappy average jobs to make a fraction of that much, and we pretend we're above him on a video game internet forum. He's probably laughing at us as well, but only if he knew about us.
TheMeInTeam
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Osweiler actually had a slightly higher QBR last season than Kaep. I think that was a great move by the Browns, trading cap space they can afford now + dump later at minimal penalty for a draft pick is good business. It would be pretty hilarious if a player that was effectively paid to be taken off someone's hands winds up somehow being decent on one of the worst franchises of the past 2 decades. I'm seeing more 4-5 wins there than something good though.
When I stated my case earlier, I was certainly not implying Kaep is a good starter, just that he wasn't the worst last year and should really only be out of the league if he values himself higher than the market would pay a bad starter/strong backup.
Kaep in Miami would have been great entertainment, though I'm not sure the NFL would agree.
When I stated my case earlier, I was certainly not implying Kaep is a good starter, just that he wasn't the worst last year and should really only be out of the league if he values himself higher than the market would pay a bad starter/strong backup.
Kaep in Miami would have been great entertainment, though I'm not sure the NFL would agree.
Light Cleric
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No I meant giraffe because of his insane neck, it's like that one gif where Ahmad Brooks turned Drew Brees into Mr. Incredible except for real
Also I don't really care if Osweiler is laughing at us. He's not paid to be better than us, he's paid to be better than other NFL players. I'm better at my job than he is at his so that's all I really need tbh
If there's one town that has an excuse not to sign Kaepernick, it's Miami with its enormous community of Cubans and Cuban exiles. I can't tell you not to be offended about Kapernick praising Castro's Cuba if you literally risked your life to escape it because it was so bad.
Also I don't really care if Osweiler is laughing at us. He's not paid to be better than us, he's paid to be better than other NFL players. I'm better at my job than he is at his so that's all I really need tbh
If there's one town that has an excuse not to sign Kaepernick, it's Miami with its enormous community of Cubans and Cuban exiles. I can't tell you not to be offended about Kapernick praising Castro's Cuba if you literally risked your life to escape it because it was so bad.
caketastydelish
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edit: this was a response to Themeinteam
How are we defining "4-5 wins there"? I'm not entirely convinced the Browns will get 4 or 5 wins this season. It's a possibility, but not one you could safely count on. The Cleveland steamer brown turds will almost certainly lose all of their division games. Steelers: Do I even have to say anything? Bengals: Contrary to what the critics said, they had a great draft. They wisely invested their first round pick into a great wide receiver, thus greatly lightening the load on A.J. Green. More importantly, they got a running back that can really punch through defenses, as he's already proven. Ravens: They went 8 and 8 last year, I don't expect them to get any worse.
I also don't agree that the Osweiler thing was a good trade. I mean yes, they had tons of money they could spend. They just should have got someone better. If I had the money to buy an inflatable jacuzzi and fill it with strippers and do things that could put me in long term danger, that wouldn't necessarily be a wise investment even if the money is easily there.
How are we defining "4-5 wins there"? I'm not entirely convinced the Browns will get 4 or 5 wins this season. It's a possibility, but not one you could safely count on. The Cleveland steamer brown turds will almost certainly lose all of their division games. Steelers: Do I even have to say anything? Bengals: Contrary to what the critics said, they had a great draft. They wisely invested their first round pick into a great wide receiver, thus greatly lightening the load on A.J. Green. More importantly, they got a running back that can really punch through defenses, as he's already proven. Ravens: They went 8 and 8 last year, I don't expect them to get any worse.
I also don't agree that the Osweiler thing was a good trade. I mean yes, they had tons of money they could spend. They just should have got someone better. If I had the money to buy an inflatable jacuzzi and fill it with strippers and do things that could put me in long term danger, that wouldn't necessarily be a wise investment even if the money is easily there.
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