Come again?

[zjl56]

I am not spamming Iggy I am just trying to contribute my opinion to this thread.
Iggy there is proof all around us that God exists. If you don't like my opinion then you can try you best to prove God doesn't exist. Which you can not do.

 

[Iggy]

I am not spamming Iggy I am just trying to contribute my opinion to this thread.
Iggy there is proof all around us that God exists. If you don't like my opinion then you can try you best to prove God doesn't exist. Which you can not do.

There was and is another thread for that. I am questioning how a christian would accept the validity of Jesus in his second coming. By quoting religious texts and your feelings you are not addressing my question. I will not bombard you with anti christian phrases and dogma, (I am genuinely interested in what christains say on this matter), please dont bombard this thread with off topic rants.
So zjl56, would you beleive in the Christ claim of a charismatic person who had reportedly performed Christ like deeds? Would you wait for his endorsemant by your church before you believed in him?

 

[Aphex_Twin]

@Iggy

Your story should have went a little bit differently:

How would you feel if someone in authority came with a black book and told you the only way to find salvation is to follow it. That would be simple enough, but the book contradicts itself. Also, if you question either the authority of the man or the coherence of the book, you and your family are expected to burn at the stake.

Would you convert? Would you convert because you feel what you have been told is the truth?

 

[Stile]

That is an honest answer. But then does that mean you needed organised religion in whatever form to create the spiritual feeling of faith I guess you have?

What do you consider organized religion? I need the Bible and Christian community. It's not so strange really. Besides my church I am in an informal community group of about 10 people. Was I in the first century, I would have atleast required the Bible (in the separate books that it existed at the time) or an apostle such as Paul.

Your first post is a little hazy hypothetically speaking. Jesus performed many miracles in public, and only declined once they would alter His fate as given by God. Subsequently He gave the apostles the ability to perform many miracles until such time as His church was created and the Bible available.

 

[Iggy]

@Aphex. good post.

 

[zjl56]

The man free from sin is Jesus. Free from temptations but most importantly original sin. We can all be Holy but we all have original sin and temptations to do bad. But Jesus was free from temptations of evil and original sin. So Jesus is unique in that way so we could reconize him.

 

[Iggy]

What do you consider organized religion? I need the Bible and Christian community. It's not so strange really. Besides my church I am in an informal community group of about 10 people. Was I in the first century, I would have atleast required the Bible (in the separate books that it existed at the time) or an apostle such as Paul.

Your first post is a little hazy hypothetically speaking. Jesus performed many miracles in public, and only declined once they would alter His fate as given by God. Subsequently He gave the apostles the ability to perform many miracles until such time as His church was created and the Bible available.

OK Stile. I will bow to your superior knowledge of the bible and the texts. My first post was perhaps simplistic as I did not want to get too bogged down in details which may have detracted from the main question, (plus I am a slow, yet impatient typist ).
In the context I mentioned organised religion I mean ones main christian sub-grouping, for example Church of England. I was trying to ascertain whether someone would a practising christian wait to find faith in the new Jesus until his church told him / her it was ok to do so?

 

[Stile]

@ Aphex: Yeah, good post. That is if you are trying to portray an extremely obtuse view of the spread of Christianity. Your view is not accurate of Christianity as it is now or as it has been in the past, except for perhaps a limited time in which it reflects not on Christianity itself but on the perpetrators themselves.

 

[Iggy]

The man free from sin is Jesus. Free from temptations but most importantly original sin. We can all be Holy but we all have original sin and temptations to do bad. But Jesus was free from temptations of evil and original sin. So Jesus is unique in that way so we could reconize him.

But by no means did everybody who saw or heard Jesus beleive he was telling the truth. If they had done then he would not have been crucified. If they did not believe him then it is not beyond reason why some people 2000 years later do not believe.

 

[Stile]

@ Iggy: I would be surprised in your scenario if Christians wait until their Church says so. I would not. I disagree with some of what my church does, and I suspect most Christians today, while certainly influenced by their Church's opinions, are more likely to decide for themselves.

 

[Iggy]

@stile. Yes that would be logical. Have you any idea how any of the churches have reached a consensus as to how to approach this matter if it were to happen?

 

[Stile]

But Jesus was free from temptations of evil and original sin. So Jesus is unique in that way so we could reconize him.

I have to disagree. Jesus was tempted, most notably in the desert. Sure he overcame those temptations.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

@ Aphex: Yeah, good post. That is if you are trying to portray an extremely obtuse view of the spread of Christianity. Your view is not accurate of Christianity as it is now or as it has been in the past, except for perhaps a limited time in which it reflects not on Christianity itself but on the perpetrators themselves.

What chance would Christianity have had if:

The Roman Empire would have not outlawed all the other religions.
The Inquisition would not have existed.
The Spanish conquistadors would not have tried to spread it.

 

[zjl56]

I have to disagree. Jesus was tempted, most notably in the desert. Sure he overcame those temptations.

He did get tempted but Jesus could do no sin. For God is perfect.

 

[Vanadorn]

Iggy, I have been stopping in and out of the other prove and do not prove threads that began popping up over the last week or 2. Thank you for starting a well thought out and excellent thread, and taking the pains to keep it on track as well as discussing the topic at hand.

Based on the criteria you've set, I would not accept this individual as JC2. Plus, based on this criteria, extremely few people would have accepted him as JC1 back in the day. It took followers, zealots, believers, and his acolytes to constantly profess this individual, eventually building a religion and following about the man. It is easier for people to be converted once the religion exists.

It is for this reason why Christianity didn't become formalized until way after his death. I will still observe this thread, but unless something occurs to spur my into commenting, will most likely only lurk.

When the youthful members of these forums get theri back up about religion, they tend to ignore or gloss over conflicting concepts that are presented to them. Blind faith and adherence to the chruch, bible, and JC is not proof or acceptance for anyone. Best of luck.

My 2 cents

 

[zjl56]

What chance would Christianity have had if:

The Roman Empire would have not outlawed all the other religions.
The Inquisition would not have existed.
The Spanish conquistadors would not have tried to spread it.

Aphex Rome outlawed Christianity for 300 years. It was not until Constantine son of St. Helan made it all right to practice Christianity.

 

[Iggy]

@Vanadorn. Thanks for that. Alas I have to go now until Mon, so I wait with anticipation how this thread will end up. I hope some can continue to explore the answer.
@zjl56. Can you reply to post #49 please?

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Aphex Rome outlawed Christianity for 300 years. It was not until Constantine son of St. Helan made it all right to practice Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hise.htm
The Emperor Theodosian issued a series of decrees or rescripts in the years 341, 345, 356, 381, 383, 386 and 391 CE. They effect of these orders was to "suppress all rival religions, order the closing of the temples, and impose fines, confiscation, imprisonment or death upon any who cling to the older [Pagan] religions."

He did made it "alright", then it was decided, it was going to be the only "alright" religion.


And you still didn't answer my question.

 

[zjl56]

But by no means did everybody who saw or heard Jesus beleive he was telling the truth. If they had done then he would not have been crucified. If they did not believe him then it is not beyond reason why some people 2000 years later do not believe.

Jesus had to be Crucified. His mission was to lay out a path we could follow. But also he had to die for us. To clense us of our sins.
Many people choose not to believe for many different reasons. Many chose to not believe Jesus when he was right in front of him.

 

[Stile]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hise.htm
The Emperor Theodosian issued a series of decrees or rescripts in the years 341, 345, 356, 381, 383, 386 and 391 CE. They effect of these orders was to "suppress all rival religions, order the closing of the temples, and impose fines, confiscation, imprisonment or death upon any who cling to the older [Pagan] religions."

He did made it "alright", then it was decided, it was going to be the only "alright" religion.


And you still didn't answer my question.

Interesting site. How did Theodosian issue decrees before he was born in 346 CE, much less before he became emperor in 379?

Christianity existed outside these events. Christianity was dominating by 391 when intolerance towards other religions was tacitly approved by Theodosian. I fail to see how the Inquisition helped it, and the Conquistadors were accompanied by missionaries. I don't think Christianity would look much different today.