Come on modders, include docs!

[Willem]

If i would have ten moders more in team i would carry about fully documentation than

I'm not suggesting anything elaborate, no need for a full-blown manual. Just a few paragraphs explaining the mod, and what's supposed to be done with it.

 

[doronron]

Did you also read my PS? And I didn't read the stickies since I was expecting to get some readmes in the mod archives. It's pretty much standard procedure in any of the other mod communities I've dealt with the past few years. So what's so special about the Civ community that they can't be bothered doing this as well?

I posted my response prior to your PS being inserted into the thread, and it didn't address my point satisfactorily enough for me to edit my post. The level of work provided by the mod makers in this community is some of the highest quality available on the web. Some could be considered professional level if they were being paid for it.

The "lack" of documentation for much of the work is due primarily due to the fact that they expect you've read the introductory post for their work -- how else would you know you'd be interested in what it had to offer? And why would they need you in particular to associate their names to their work? No one else seems to have had any difficulty in differentiating jdog5000's Revolution and Rebellion Mod from Snafusmith's Modern Warfare Mod or from Dale's Combat Mod.

This leads me to think you're more concerned with how to install than what the mod does. In addition, all of the packages provided follow the same organizational method -- a single folder under which all of the appropriate files are kept, and the installation process was made mindnumbingly easy by Firaxis -- drag and drop the single folder into the Mods folders, either the one under Civ for vanilla mods or the one under warlords for those that use the expansion pack's features. By the way, that introductory post associated with each mod also tells you which version of Civ the mod was designed for.

 

[Willem]

The level of work provided by the mod makers in this community is some of the highest quality available on the web. Some could be considered professional level if they were being paid for it.

No doubt. And some of their work has even made it into the official release, such as Blake's AI modifications. Which is why I tend to look for work that takes that extra step, tiny though it be.

The "lack" of documentation for much of the work is due primarily due to the fact that they expect you've read the introductory post for their work -- how else would you know you'd be interested in what it had to offer?

Like I said, I downloaded on a whim. I came across a link that someone provided in response to some suggestions another poster was asking for. I figured I'd follow the link and check out a few things, not having tried any Civ 4 mods before. I just downloaded a bunch of stuff that seemed interesting thinking I could sort through it all later. That didn't turn out to be the case.

No one else seems to have had any difficulty in differentiating jdog5000's Revolution and Rebellion Mod from Snafusmith's Modern Warfare Mod or from Dale's Combat Mod.

Not the regular people who check out this forum maybe, but there's all kinds of people, like me, who have never tried a Civ 4 mod before. If you just cater to a closed community, you're not going to get your work known very well.

This leads me to think you're more concerned with how to install than what the mod does.

Not just. Like I mentioned in my PS, if it sits on my hard drive for awhile, I may forget what the mod is about. I usually download a bunch of stuff all at once and I may not get around to doing anything with it for awhile. I have some things for other games I've had sitting around for years now, like some mods for Baldur's Gate 2. You can only try so many at once, and I have other games I have mods for as well. So if it doesn't have any sort of readme, I could easily forget what's it's about. And I certainly wouldn't be able to remember whether it was a vanilla Civ mod or one for Warlords.

By the way, that introductory post associated with each mod also tells you which version of Civ the mod was designed for.

Sorry, but that's not true in all cases. Nor does it necessarily mention what patch version it was made with, which could be an important bit of info. And as I mentioned, if it sits on my drive for awhile, that blurb on the web site isn't going to do me very much good. I'm not about to track down the page just to figure out what the mod is all about, it's just history.

And as I also mentioned, I've come to expect some sort of info file in any mod I acquire. In the case of the Baldur's gate mods, one community uses an HTML readme that can actually link up to the site to let me know whether I have the most recent version. Now that's taking the extra step! It's a pretty standard procedure with most of the communities I've been dealing with to include at least something in the archive, so I only gave those posts a glance to get a basic idea of what the mod was about.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Who's talking about professional level, just a short text file is sufficient.

You are talking about professional level. Read your out frikken OP.

 

[Yakk]

Yes, but civilization is a game of geeks.

The files themselves describe what the mod does!

In my case, the small amount of published modding is just the set of modifications I find enjoyable to play, and at least 1 other person wanted to see.

If you want to document a mod, feel free to. I doubt anyone with a published mod would object to the addition a documentation blurb. And then you can solve your problem with the lack of documentation!

Speaking of documentation, anyone happen to know how to get a string to show up in the civ4 game when you select the mod? There seems to be a description field in the .ini file, but I haven't poked at it.

 

[Willem]

You are talking about professional level. Read your out frikken OP.

I beg your pardon, what exactly are you refering to? In what way was my post unprofessional? Not that there's such a thing as a professional attitude in expressing an opinion anyway. Courteous yes, professional no.

OK, I see your point now. And I later mentioned that at least trying to adopt the attitude would be good. Of course amateur modders may never achieve the level of someone in an actual gaming house, but why not take what you're doing seriously enough to make the attempt. There's a few people here I can see who are striving for that, but not very many.

 

[Willem]

The files themselves describe what the mod does!

But that's the point, if they're sitting on my hard drive they don't.

In my case, the small amount of published modding is just the set of modifications I find enjoyable to play, and at least 1 other person wanted to see.

Which is fine, but I was dealing with full blown scenarios that were posted. With at times complicated features, quite different from the default game.

If you want to document a mod, feel free to. I doubt anyone with a published mod would object to the addition a documentation blurb. And then you can solve your problem with the lack of documentation!

Yeah right, I'm going to do someone's work for them.

 

[asioasioasio]

The mayor problem is that it seems like you have huge expectation for someones hobby work (wich you get paing no $) wich was made without resources and huge teams with milions of bucks to be spent for game development and promotion.

Personally i make instal file and there it's readme so even when the install file is dumpng on hdd you may get know what this is (but i don't want to make fully docementation) - but firaxis made installing mods so simple that it doesn't need to be remebered 100 times by modders - on page, in readme, in stickies, in faq, in installation files..... just only for one person who's to lazy to look on web page

Yeah right, I'm going to do someone's work for them.

And i have feeling you should think about your ego, not ego of this modders who spends a lot of free time to make mods

 

[doronron]

No doubt. And some of their work has even made it into the official release, such as Blake's AI modifications. Which is why I tend to look for work that takes that extra step, tiny though it be.

The extra step is not needed if the user in question uses basic reading comprehension. Like the mod or don't. The community doesn't have to cater to your wishes.

Like I said, I downloaded on a whim. I came across a link that someone provided in response to some suggestions another poster was asking for. I figured I'd follow the link and check out a few things, not having tried any Civ 4 mods before. I just downloaded a bunch of stuff that seemed interesting thinking I could sort through it all later. That didn't turn out to be the case.

Again, basic reading comprehension. The files are named such that determining the content of the archive is not difficult.

Not the regular people who check out this forum maybe, but there's all kinds of people, like me, who have never tried a Civ 4 mod before. If you just cater to a closed community, you're not going to get your work known very well.

Willem, you've got over 2700 posts in this forum. A quote like this coming from someone like you is ridiculous. You've had enough experience with this "closed" community that you should have had any difficulties following the ins and out of this forum. Again, this leads me to think your complaint was borne primarily from your forgetting to look at the stickies.

Even the Civ IV manual describes how to install and launch mods. A user on this particular forum with over 2000 posts to his handle can't tell me he's never read the manual to a Civ game.

Not just. Like I mentioned in my PS, if it sits on my hard drive for awhile, I may forget what the mod is about. I usually download a bunch of stuff all at once and I may not get around to doing anything with it for awhile. I have some things for other games I've had sitting around for years now, like some mods for Baldur's Gate 2. You can only try so many at once, and I have other games I have mods for as well. So if it doesn't have any sort of readme, I could easily forget what's it's about. And I certainly wouldn't be able to remember whether it was a vanilla Civ mod or one for Warlords.

Again, the onus is on you to organize your hard drive. You. No one else. If you can't come up with a reasonable archive system to maintain your library it's not the fault of anyone else. The files are named such as to be recognizable, and their installation process is painfully easy. When you downloaded the things, you should've stuck them in a folder that should've told you what game they were for while you had the presence of mind to do so.

Sorry, but that's not true in all cases. Nor does it necessarily mention what patch version it was made with, which could be an important bit of info. And as I mentioned, if it sits on my drive for awhile, that blurb on the web site isn't going to do me very much good. I'm not about to track down the page just to figure out what the mod is all about, it's just history.

And as I also mentioned, I've come to expect some sort of info file in any mod I acquire. In the case of the Baldur's gate mods, one community uses an HTML readme that can actually link up to the site to let me know whether I have the most recent version. Now that's taking the extra step! It's a pretty standard procedure with most of the communities I've been dealing with to include at least something in the archive, so I only gave those posts a glance to get a basic idea of what the mod was about.

Every mod I've looked at under the Civ IV group denotes specifically which version of Civ it's for, and which patch it's designed to run under. The method of operation here is that the bulk of the information is listed on the opening post from the mod designer. The links in the download section point to the threads in which they're introduced. The onus is on you to understand the forum's methods of providing information. You're supposed to adapt to it, not the other way around. Again, you've got 2700 posts here, there's no reason for you to have had any problems navigating this site.

And again, you're the one responsible for organizing your library of downloads, not anyone else. It's your job.

...and I'm beginning to wonder which mods you're complaining about. Feel free to post links.

I've pulled a large number of mods off this site recently, and I can't seem to recall a single one that didn't have a file of some form that provided information on what the mod does and who made it.

 

[Aranor]

For my own uses, not for public release.



Now that's real professional! Can't handle a little constructive criticism? And yet another reason why I don't spent very time on CivFanatics anymore, too many people with your attitude.



The same can be said for other modding communites I've dealt with, like Neverwinter Nights, but they still try and make the effort to communicate to the people using their mods. Maybe the community here is just far too ego driven. It would certainly seem that way judging by the kind of responses I'm getting for putting in my two-cents worth. They should be resorting to personal attacks any time soon.

Being a member of the Neverwinter Nights community as well as here, yes you are correct they do supply more information about installation instructions on their mods. However Neverwinter Nights is not as easy to install a full blown mod into. However Neverwinter Nights is in the minority I have found as I am also a member of the guild for the Total war series and one of their best mods ever ( For all total war games) is Eurpoa Barbarorum and they only provide install instructions on THEIR website! Not in their downloaded files. The attitude here is no different. In all the time I have spent here either modding for CIV or DLing mods for civ I have never come across a major mod that had no installation instructions. If you cannot take the time to properly familiarize yourself with the way this community works and expect us to do everything how other communities do things then I feel sorry for you. We all work hard on our mods, and generally this is a very friendly community with everyone willing to help eachother out. ( As pointed out we are all hobby modders) to expect every one to do things the way you have seen on other sites is just wrong.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Being a member of the Neverwinter Nights community as well as here, yes you are correct they do supply more information about installation instructions on their mods. However Neverwinter Nights is not as easy to install a full blown mod into.

Agreed. I worked extensively on the PRC Pack for NWN1, and we had a couple of guys dedicated to documentation.

Anyway, let's not all get in a snit about something trivial.

In my experience, most large mods do come with some documentation, so if a community member has an issue with a mod that does not, that's where they should be taking it up.

 

[Yakk]

But that's the point, if they're sitting on my hard drive they don't.

They do. They are python code, C++ code (if you downloaded the source), and XML specs. They specify pretty damn exactly what they do.

You might not be able to read them.

Which is fine, but I was dealing with full blown scenarios that were posted. With at times complicated features, quite different from the default game.

*nod* -- and some of them don't even include docs asto what changes they made, exactly.

On the other hand, I'd rather have someone spend their time creating new and interesting content, then hand-holding people who aren't willing to contribute.

Yeah right, I'm going to do someone's work for them.

Like you. You are just as capable of writing up the installation instructions as they are, and maintaining a README that is a copy-paste of the documentation within the thread. Yet you claim it is their responsibility.

You, meanwhile, are not even sharing the modifications you do in a shareable form. You are not contributiong, instead you are taking and complaining that your gift horse doesn't come with a saddle.

Contribute. Either take your on-computer content and bundle it into a redistribution that others can use, or help document other people's content. Reformat the installation instructions in the sticky posts and make a good canonical "README.html" file that modders can include in their mods.

And if you don't contribute, whining about people who are contributing, saying that they aren't doing a good enough job, really looks asinine.

The people who don't include documentation in their mods could have contributed more. But even if all they ever did was post up an unreadable file, they have done infinitely more than you have.

 

[Willem]

Like the mod or don't. The community doesn't have to cater to your wishes.

I can't know if I like the mod or not if it never makes it into my game. Nor do I have to bother with the community if I feel it doesn't have the kind of standards I'm looking for in a mod. Keep in mind that expression, "First impressions are the most important." Many things I download, not just Civ mods, never make it past the initial opening of that archive. And the inclusion of some sort of readme is a big part of it. It gives me a chance to really decide whether I want to try it out or not. If it's not even there to begin with, it's a forgone conclusion. I won't. Think of it as marketing your product. Adding a readme is your last chance to convince someone to try out your work.

Willem, you've got over 2700 posts in this forum. A quote like this coming from someone like you is ridiculous.

No it's not. My post count comes from many years of hanging around the main discussion forums. I have rarely downloaded a Civ mod from here, certainly not since Civ 4 came out. And it's always been small files that I wanted to include in my own mods, never an actual scenario or conversion.

A user on this particular forum with over 2000 posts to his handle can't tell me he's never read the manual to a Civ game.

Barely, and not since I first got the game. And just enough then to get an idea of some of the basic changes from Civ 3. The rest I figured out as I went along. I certainly never bothered with the part about installing mods.

Again, the onus is on you to organize your hard drive. You. No one else. If you can't come up with a reasonable archive system to maintain your library it's not the fault of anyone else. The files are named such as to be recognizable, and their installation process is painfully easy. When you downloaded the things, you should've stuck them in a folder that should've told you what game they were for while you had the presence of mind to do so.

There's nothing wrong with my organization. I know exactly which files belong to which games. And I have been speaking more hypothetically as far as the Civ 4 mods have been concerned, since I only downloaded them yesterday. But like I said, I have files that I've had for years, many of them, and I certainly can't be expected to know what they're all about simply by the name of them. If the same situation were true of the Civ 4 files I recently recieved, that they had been around for awhile, they would just get lost in the shuffle. I can't be bothered trying out a file I know nothing, or have forgotten about, just to see what it does. I don't have time for that.

...and I'm beginning to wonder which mods you're complaining about. Feel free to post links.

One good example is the Ethnically Diverse Units. On the download site and in his thread and in the archive, all the documentaion refers to installing the 2.8 patch, mentioning that I must have 2.6 installed. Yet there's no info anywhere that tells me how I'm supposed to install that version.

I've pulled a large number of mods off this site recently, and I can't seem to recall a single one that didn't have a file of some form that provided information on what the mod does and who made it.

I grabbed at least a dozen mods from the Scenarios section, using mainly the ratings and the number of downloads as a guide, and only three of them included any sort of documentation. And unfortunately, all of those were for vanilla civ. So I basically ended up wasting my time. The verdict is still out on the Ethnically Diverse Units. At the very least I should be able to add them individually myself, once I get the inclination to start adding units to my game.

 

[Willem]

However Neverwinter Nights is not as easy to install a full blown mod into.

Not so much. You basically have three folders, Mods, Erfs and Haks, with the odd Override. And the file extensions make it prettt much self-explanatory as to which files go in which folder.

However Neverwinter Nights is in the minority I have found ...

I also find this a common practice with Oblivion, Baldur's Gate, Galactic Civilizations 2, even CivCity:Rome when I was still playing the game, and a some others I don't play anymore. In short every community I've dealt with except this one.

If you cannot take the time to properly familiarize yourself with the way this community works and expect us to do everything how other communities do things then I feel sorry for you. We all work hard on our mods, and generally this is a very friendly community with everyone willing to help eachother out. ( As pointed out we are all hobby modders) to expect every one to do things the way you have seen on other sites is just wrong.

I really don't understand the attitude I'm getting here. What is the problem with spending 5-10 minutes coming up with some sort of readme to include with the archives? Why is it so much trouble to open up Notepad, jot down a few basic paragraphs and save it? It's really not a big deal, yet everyone seems to be taking my input so personally. Frankly this whole episode has got me completely turned off of ever getting involved with Civ 4 mods again. The hassle is just not worth it. So good luck to you all.

 

[ClassicThunder]

For everything you've said you've run into a few mini-mods, had some problems installing them and instead of PM the creator or posting for help, you say that all of us modders are too lazy to make a small readme. Just to help you out, that might be why the forum full of modders gets irritated. When you have a problem using a mod or modpack contact the creator, don't tell the community "Come on modders, include docs!". FYI, "Come on" means you think we are not up to your par.

Go the "extra mile" and try to figure this stuff out. We will help then. Say we are a lazy community that is below par and all we do is hope you leave.

So since.

Frankly this whole episode has got me completely turned off of ever getting involved with Civ 4 mods again.

I say, "Thank Goodness".

 

[Aranor]

I say, "Thank Goodness".

Here Here, couldn't agree more

 

[Yakk]

I don't understand what we lose. You are uninterested in contributing, and consider a suggestion to actually try to help to be offensive "why should I do their work!"

Meanwhile, you lose out on trying Ryse and Fall, SevoMod, AMRA, BetterAI, Fall from Heaven I and II, and dozens of other great mods.

How again is saying "I don't like your attitude, how dare you ask that I contribute! I'm going to take my ball and go home!" a larger problem for us than it is for you?

 

[Chuggi]

Ok, Willem, please get this straight. These modders are uploading these files for you to download. They've spent countless hours on mod that you can enjoy for nothing, and you're too lazy and selfish to help out, or upload anything!!

You seem to particularly have issues with White Rabbit's EDU mod? It's a matter of unzipping the mod into your mod folder, and loading it in game. Sure it could have a txt file explaining this, which would probably take 5 minutes plus uploading times (White Rabbit has now done this), but how do you think the other 3000+ people have installed and played the mod? They read the thread! What did you do..? In all the time you've spent flaming everyone, you could have read the entire EDU thread (about 28 pages long) which would have answered all the questions you ever wanted to know about EDU, and from that you could have learnt where to place the dozen other mods you have.. generally, complete mods (not mod components) have the same structure for very simple installation.

Seriously, if you can't be bothered going back to the thread and reading it then basically you've downloaded the mod for nothing. Why download it if you're just going to give up when you can't work out where to extract the files.

Lastly, Rabbit has even spent hours on documented tutorials to help you make the units yourself, and get them in game - so stop calling everyone unprofessional. Enjoy playing Vanilla Civ or Warlords and stop being aggresive. It doesn't take much to turn this anger into something productive, like good constructive criticism or helping out by writing a 5 minute readme. If you have any major concerns it's better to PM the authors before flaming them.................

 

[Mozza]

OK, Willem, I'll give you a hint:

PUT IT IN THE MODS FOLDER, CLICK LOAD A MOD


oh, if you want to play one Mod a lot, go to the config file (there's a shortcut from the main Civ 4 Folder) and change the croll down and there's an option to automatically load the mod, it's about 12 lines down, can't remember the exact wording but it's pretty self-explanatory once you find the file. If you're going to play a lot of different mods, this wont help you though.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

just search for mod =