Kublai-Khan
Prince
Lefty, you have a pm.
'commies'
- Thread starter Cecasander
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CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
You cannot vote for a Communist Party that has been banned, can you?
As for ideology justifying murder, I'm pretty sure all of them get round this by defining the act of killing as a political crime - "I shot at the uniform, not at the person wearing it".
Be careful how your own ideology (whatever is) treats killing other human beings. It's one thing to bang on about the other side must be destroyed from a distance of thousands of miles.
It is quite a different thing to pull that trigger at close range.
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
I completely agree w/ PantherTigris2 here.
I'll add that many Americans choose to ignore or do not acknowledge the fact that it was a propaganda campaign that led to their distrust of even the suggestion of Communism.
The rhetorical argument against Communism is anti-intellectual, and is deservedly criticized by the intelligensia.
That is not to say that Communism is a great system, or that opposition to it is inherently flawed -- it really boils down to WHY you are opposing Communism.
It's the absolute villification of Communism that annoys me, because I believe that the politically motivated villification undermines free expression of ideas and propogates tyranny, rather than opposing it.
Greadius
:yeah:
Who is banning the Communist party.http://www.cpusa.org/
Not us, comrade.
http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/index.php
Not you.
Then who?
Well, in communism in practice my avatar is wearing the uniform of the enemy.
Fire away :suicide:
Propoganda is really a weak word for it, because its been so accentuated by the results yielded from the proudly & self proclaimed communist society, as well as the large influx of refugees it left in its wake.
I'm wondering the same thing! I dont know any European country that has actually banned their communist parties.Originally posted by Greadius
http://www.cpusa.org/
Not us, comrade.
http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/index.php
Not you.
Then who?
CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
I suggest you expand your research somewhat - it might indicate a few countries where "revolutionary" Communism is seen as a threat, and so it has no political voice.
It has no voice in Europe or the US because no one takes it seriously in these places.
And if you can't be bothered to do the research - truth is, neither can I.
It has no voice in Europe or the US because no one takes it seriously in these places.
And if you can't be bothered to do the research - truth is, neither can I.
Greadius
:yeah:
Well YOU made the claim, I figured you had something to show in support of it. Let me rephrase then: what information prompted you to state "You cannot vote for a Communist Party that has been banned, can you?"Which communist party has been banned?
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
Thank you very very much Lefty.
CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
Outside of the Ukraine, I can find no evidence of a banned CP in Europe. There doesn't appear to be a CP of Iceland - seeing as it's the keystone of the Atlantic I don't find this surprising.
I can also find no evidence of CPs in oil producing Arab countries (Is Egypt an oil producer?) or Nigeria, which kind of props up my shaky argument.
The current CP of Nepal is engaged either in hostilities or negotiations. If they are not banned, they certainly are active.
The CP of Columbia is complaining of too many perforations, either at the hands of the FARC or the paramilitaries. Seems like their caught in the middle there.
In other words - if you are in a strategic country, no CP allowed. Oh no. Mind you, for a lot of them, no democracy allowed either.
I can also find no evidence of CPs in oil producing Arab countries (Is Egypt an oil producer?) or Nigeria, which kind of props up my shaky argument.
The current CP of Nepal is engaged either in hostilities or negotiations. If they are not banned, they certainly are active.
The CP of Columbia is complaining of too many perforations, either at the hands of the FARC or the paramilitaries. Seems like their caught in the middle there.
In other words - if you are in a strategic country, no CP allowed. Oh no. Mind you, for a lot of them, no democracy allowed either.
Greadius
:yeah:
A strategic country? Perhaps if we had control they would be allowed... versus the influence we have (really... Nepal?).
I mean, chances are if democracy doesn't exist you're not going to find many political parties, so its kind of like finding a forgone conclusion. Nice attempt attempt at reframing the debate, though, your original question might have ended at "If you can't vote..." and have made that point just find. I suppose we agree, more democracy needed (on its way in a strategic country in Iraq, we hope. But I'm sure you're still upset about it). I see no reason to cry for the inability of communists in Jordan to express their opinion when nobody else there can express it either... I'm an equal oppertunity sympathizer.
However, does no evidence mean you couldn't find a website for them, or they don't exist?
I mean, chances are if democracy doesn't exist you're not going to find many political parties, so its kind of like finding a forgone conclusion. Nice attempt attempt at reframing the debate, though, your original question might have ended at "If you can't vote..." and have made that point just find. I suppose we agree, more democracy needed (on its way in a strategic country in Iraq, we hope. But I'm sure you're still upset about it). I see no reason to cry for the inability of communists in Jordan to express their opinion when nobody else there can express it either... I'm an equal oppertunity sympathizer.
However, does no evidence mean you couldn't find a website for them, or they don't exist?
CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
1) Nepal is a strategic country, both for the Gurkha battalions raised there and for the border with India. Do you want a border between 2 hostile nuclear states, both with a population problem? Go away and think about it.
2) It takes more than a sore loser in an argument to upset me.
3) It means I can find no reference to them on a web. No homepage, no articlers, no visits from other CPs, zip, a black hole. That's not to say they don't exist, it means there is no publicity about them. Clear?
Furry Spatula
...
There are numerous reasons I "hate" communism. First of all i guess it would be the fact that it has put so many people in such painful positions. I mean my parents used to live in Communist Poland, they thankfully got out with my brother and came here to Canada.
One of the problems with communism is that it is idealistic and presumes nobody will try to take advantage of the system.
Another reason i dislike communism is evident by looking at the former USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba etc. Present day communists are quick to point out that isn't what Marx envisioned. BUt the fact remains. Every country that has attempted to implement Communism fell flat on its face and ended up with a cruel dictatorship.
Reason 3: Communism calls for blood shed. This is closely related to reason 2. If you need a bloody revolution then i don't see how it can be supported. It calls for murdering people. That in and of itself is moraly distasteful to me.
Reason 4: It bans religion. Religion is the opiate of the people according to Marx. Marx believed that Religion needed to be outlawed as it blinded people to the pains they experience on earth as they are contented as they wait for pleasures in the afterlife. Depending on who you talk to they may beleive the same thing. However, why should they be able to force beliefs on people. The Church was criticized for burning people at the steaks as heretics if they were not what is now Roman Catholic. Communism essentially does the same thing. If you aren't and athiest we will shoot you in the head.
Those are just a few of the reasons i hate communism.
One of the problems with communism is that it is idealistic and presumes nobody will try to take advantage of the system.
Another reason i dislike communism is evident by looking at the former USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba etc. Present day communists are quick to point out that isn't what Marx envisioned. BUt the fact remains. Every country that has attempted to implement Communism fell flat on its face and ended up with a cruel dictatorship.
Reason 3: Communism calls for blood shed. This is closely related to reason 2. If you need a bloody revolution then i don't see how it can be supported. It calls for murdering people. That in and of itself is moraly distasteful to me.
Reason 4: It bans religion. Religion is the opiate of the people according to Marx. Marx believed that Religion needed to be outlawed as it blinded people to the pains they experience on earth as they are contented as they wait for pleasures in the afterlife. Depending on who you talk to they may beleive the same thing. However, why should they be able to force beliefs on people. The Church was criticized for burning people at the steaks as heretics if they were not what is now Roman Catholic. Communism essentially does the same thing. If you aren't and athiest we will shoot you in the head.
Those are just a few of the reasons i hate communism.
napoleon526
Emperor
I shall now post the obligatory Onion article:
VOLUME 36 ISSUE 46 20 DECEMBER 2000
Communists Now Least Threatening Group In U.S.
WASHINGTON, DCAccording to a report released Monday by the Pentagon, Communists rank last on a list of 238 threats to national security. "Communists may now safely be ignored," Secretary of Defense William Cohen said. "The Red Menace has been surpassed by militia groups, religious extremists, ecoterrorists, cybercriminals, Hollywood producers, and angry drivers." Other groups deemed more threatening than Communists include rap-metal bands (#96), escaped zoo animals (#202), and Belgians (#237).
VOLUME 36 ISSUE 46 20 DECEMBER 2000
Communists Now Least Threatening Group In U.S.
WASHINGTON, DCAccording to a report released Monday by the Pentagon, Communists rank last on a list of 238 threats to national security. "Communists may now safely be ignored," Secretary of Defense William Cohen said. "The Red Menace has been surpassed by militia groups, religious extremists, ecoterrorists, cybercriminals, Hollywood producers, and angry drivers." Other groups deemed more threatening than Communists include rap-metal bands (#96), escaped zoo animals (#202), and Belgians (#237).
anonymous4401
Prince
Unfortunately, I read it before.
anonymous4401
Prince
Unfortunately, there seem to be many people that want to ban religion.
CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
Nice post Furry Spatula. I'd asked somebody for some reasons and the ones you posted are very much to the point. Thank you.
Furry Spatula
...
Now let me rant on Communist Socialist Politicians.
Look at it this way. For Socialist Politicians, who do they need to prove communism is needed? Poor people. Thus it is the interest of socialists to keep poor people poor, or just switch it around so 50k leave being poor, but there are 50k new poor people to take their place. Socialist states simply exploit poor people, These politicians make their careers on the backs of working people. THey are no better than the "facsist capitalist pigs" communists claim make their fortunes on the backs of working people.
And to those who are still blinded into thinking that human nature shows people are good, Explain when there has ever been equality? If you are a communist you are mostlikely athiest, thus humans have existed for many millenia. If that is the case why haven't we had equality so far? Look at history Since the Roman Empire, It is filled with blood gore and terror, not the kind of stuff that shows people doing best for everyone.
It rather shows people doing what is best for themselves. Politicians keeping power anyway they can. Murder for the sake of protecting ones intersts, Rape to fullfill ones desires.
T5812 before you accuse others of being ignorant try to learn your facts. Communism and Socialism claim to want equality and tollerance. However if you are "rich" then you are not entitled to the equality in treatment are you? You are shot very tollerant. Boy that realy falls in line with socialism. Also, where is treating people equal if they aren't athiests. Tell those people in China who cannot practice Christianity and are killed everyear how wonderful it is to be tollerant and have everyon treated equal. Communism only treats everyone equal, i guess its easy to make that claim when they kill and imprison everyone who doesn't agree with their point of view and then they only take care of their own. ANd if you don't believe me, read about the violent uprising and look at Stalin's Purges.
And about your BS about people not being greedy when the problems of capitalism are abolished, I hate to break it too you but inequality and poverty existed before communism. THey were in the fuedal system. They were in agrarian societies aswell as nomadic societies. There has alway been inequality and there always will be inequality. Someone will always grab power, Communism assumes everyone will always be on their best behaviour and will do the best for everyone, and that there are no bad seeds and nobody will abuse the system.
And also, you commented about poverty being a problem of capitalism. I suggest you look at the standard of living as it was durring the days of the Soviet Union. Having parents comming from behind the Iron Curtain you can't dare Bullsh*t me into thinking that there wasn't poverty.
Look at it this way. For Socialist Politicians, who do they need to prove communism is needed? Poor people. Thus it is the interest of socialists to keep poor people poor, or just switch it around so 50k leave being poor, but there are 50k new poor people to take their place. Socialist states simply exploit poor people, These politicians make their careers on the backs of working people. THey are no better than the "facsist capitalist pigs" communists claim make their fortunes on the backs of working people.
And to those who are still blinded into thinking that human nature shows people are good, Explain when there has ever been equality? If you are a communist you are mostlikely athiest, thus humans have existed for many millenia. If that is the case why haven't we had equality so far? Look at history Since the Roman Empire, It is filled with blood gore and terror, not the kind of stuff that shows people doing best for everyone.
It rather shows people doing what is best for themselves. Politicians keeping power anyway they can. Murder for the sake of protecting ones intersts, Rape to fullfill ones desires.
T5812 before you accuse others of being ignorant try to learn your facts. Communism and Socialism claim to want equality and tollerance. However if you are "rich" then you are not entitled to the equality in treatment are you? You are shot very tollerant. Boy that realy falls in line with socialism. Also, where is treating people equal if they aren't athiests. Tell those people in China who cannot practice Christianity and are killed everyear how wonderful it is to be tollerant and have everyon treated equal. Communism only treats everyone equal, i guess its easy to make that claim when they kill and imprison everyone who doesn't agree with their point of view and then they only take care of their own. ANd if you don't believe me, read about the violent uprising and look at Stalin's Purges.
And about your BS about people not being greedy when the problems of capitalism are abolished, I hate to break it too you but inequality and poverty existed before communism. THey were in the fuedal system. They were in agrarian societies aswell as nomadic societies. There has alway been inequality and there always will be inequality. Someone will always grab power, Communism assumes everyone will always be on their best behaviour and will do the best for everyone, and that there are no bad seeds and nobody will abuse the system.
And also, you commented about poverty being a problem of capitalism. I suggest you look at the standard of living as it was durring the days of the Soviet Union. Having parents comming from behind the Iron Curtain you can't dare Bullsh*t me into thinking that there wasn't poverty.
Furry Spatula
...
Seeing as I'm having so much fun with this. I'll go onto another problem with Socialism
My neighbours were just in Cuba, the prefered job is being a hotel porter B/c you get paid the same as being an engineer but you get tips, effectively earning you more. THis brings on reason 5. Communism ecnourages sloth. If i get paid the same ammount of money as everyone else no matter what I do why should i do my job well. Back in the Communist times of Poland and Russia and every other communist country of that time in Europe there were shoe makers. Now this is what happened. If you get paid the same as people who make a pair of shoes that are left and right why should i bother switching my machine? Why don't i just make all left shoes or boots? I'll get paid no mattet what. In fact why should i make as many shoes as that other company? I'll make half as many And I'll still get paid the same.
Now imagine you are the other shoe maker and you see this happening. Why on earth would you then keep working youself hard? You'd also stop working hard and you'd do the same thing because there is no motivation to you working well.
Also, watch K-19. THe whole thing about the Ship having faulty parts, being shipped the wrong suites etc. That is exactly what the military was like. My dad served in the Polish Military and he can attest to that stuff happening. WHat would be somones motivation to make sure that they shipped the correct stuff? THey get the same ammount of money as everyone else and they are cared for no matter what.
That is problem 5 in my ever growing list of problems with communism
My neighbours were just in Cuba, the prefered job is being a hotel porter B/c you get paid the same as being an engineer but you get tips, effectively earning you more. THis brings on reason 5. Communism ecnourages sloth. If i get paid the same ammount of money as everyone else no matter what I do why should i do my job well. Back in the Communist times of Poland and Russia and every other communist country of that time in Europe there were shoe makers. Now this is what happened. If you get paid the same as people who make a pair of shoes that are left and right why should i bother switching my machine? Why don't i just make all left shoes or boots? I'll get paid no mattet what. In fact why should i make as many shoes as that other company? I'll make half as many And I'll still get paid the same.
Now imagine you are the other shoe maker and you see this happening. Why on earth would you then keep working youself hard? You'd also stop working hard and you'd do the same thing because there is no motivation to you working well.
Also, watch K-19. THe whole thing about the Ship having faulty parts, being shipped the wrong suites etc. That is exactly what the military was like. My dad served in the Polish Military and he can attest to that stuff happening. WHat would be somones motivation to make sure that they shipped the correct stuff? THey get the same ammount of money as everyone else and they are cared for no matter what.
That is problem 5 in my ever growing list of problems with communism
anonymous4401
Prince
They can solve the military parts problem with the good old threat of execution!
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