Common Errors and/or Crashes Section

[robomani]

Sorry if I am still confused, but math was never my strong point. Lets say you have a 100 food points. With nothing you have +0. Then you add a Granary (30%) and it goes up to +30 food right? If you add and Ice House (10%) won't that be 10% of 30 which is 3% making only 3 food? Thus why would you ever want add more food storage buildings i you could get 30 bonus food wit just a granary but only 3 bonus food with a granary plus an Ice House?

Or am I completely wrong and it works another way?

I'm not sure but from what I heard in your example it should be something like: 30% + 10% = 33% but I'm not sure

 

[Hydromancerx]

I'm not sure but from what I heard in your example it should be something like: 30% + 10% = 33% but I'm not sure

Ooo! I see now. I hope that's what Koshling ment.

 

[Mannylawyer]

Are you running V16 or latest SVN?

I'm running V16. Do I have to install SVN? Is it some sort of patch?

 

[Mannylawyer]

btw Welcome to CFC, and for trying this Great mod

Thanks

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sorry if I am still confused, but math was never my strong point. Lets say you have a 100 food points. With nothing you have +0. Then you add a Granary (30%) and it goes up to +30 food right? If you add and Ice House (10%) won't that be 10% of 30 which is 3% making only 3 food? Thus why would you ever want add more food storage buildings i you could get 30 bonus food wit just a granary but only 3 bonus food with a granary plus an Ice House?

Or am I completely wrong and it works another way?

I'm not sure but from what I heard in your example it should be something like: 30% + 10% = 33% but I'm not sure

Or maybe 30% for granary then Ice House gives you 10% of whats left (70%x10%) or 7% of total giving you a total of 37%

I would say that science is hard enough to keep up with. With lots more techs and ever increasing costs for techs having more science than say a RoM/AND game is a must or you will never get anywhere on the tech tree. In short more techs mean you need more ways to get science and so far in my games with the buildings and civics they are not bad to keep you going.

I am getting techs far too fast on snail. After the classical era almost none are taking more than 5 turns. I am wondering if this is because I have built the wonder that gives free Scribal Schools and am building libraries everywhere also.

 

[EldrinFal]

Ooo! I see now. I hope that's what Koshling ment.

No. Here is how it works...

Let's say your city needs 100 Food stored to grow. If you have a Granary that stores 30%, then that means when your city grows, you save 30% and the rest, 70% is consumed. This leaves 30 Food in the city's stores, which you then build up each turn until the city can grow again.

The "Additive" method, which the game used normally, adds the percentage of multiple storage buildings prior to calculating out how much was saved. So if you had Granary at 30% and Modern Granary at 50%, then 80% of the Food would be stored when the city grows. With 100 Food to Grow, that would mean after growth, you would still have 80 Food in storage, and only 20 consumed.

In the event you had a total of 100% Food Stored, that would mean you would have 100 Food in your storage after growth! Since the requirement goes up just a small amount (2 I think?) each pop level, then you would have 100/102 Food in your stores. If you net food was +2 or more, you would grow AGAIN on the next turn.

In the event you had a total of MORE than 100% Food Storage, you would not only retain 100 Food, but you would GAIN. So on the next turn, you would have 110/102 Food, and thus, the city grows again.

Now the Multiplicative method (as I understand it)...

Instead of adding the percentages first (30% + 50% = 80%) and using that value against your entire storage, the formula will first apply 30% to your Food store, and then apply the 50% to what remains. So first it is 30% of 100, which is 30 Food stored. That leaves 70 to be consumed. But now you have that second storage, the Modern Granary, which stores 50%. The 50% is applied to 70, not 100. So 50% of 70 is 35. Add up the two total stored, 30 + 35 = 65 food stored. Which is 65% instead of the 80% you'd get with Additive.

Koshling, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[philipschall]

I am getting techs far too fast on snail. After the classical era almost none are taking more than 5 turns. I am wondering if this is because I have built the wonder that gives free Scribal Schools and am building libraries everywhere also.

Yeah, I keep finding it too easy to exponentially advance with techs, even while on diety. Getting sedentary lifestyle first is usually the beginning of the end for me ever being behind on techs. Perhaps something like the RFC city-tech limit could be made, where research is altered based on how many cities you have in play. That way giant empires would start to flounder and stagnate in tech unless serious efforts were made to keep science a priority.

People might not be fond of that idea in the same way not everyone was on board with the city limits. It would be neat as an option, though.

 

[EldrinFal]

Yeah, I keep finding it too easy to exponentially advance with techs, even while on diety. Getting sedentary lifestyle first is usually the beginning of the end for me ever being behind on techs. Perhaps something like the RFC city-tech limit could be made, where research is altered based on how many cities you have in play. That way giant empires would start to flounder and stagnate in tech unless serious efforts were made to keep science a priority.

People might not be fond of that idea in the same way not everyone was on board with the city limits. It would be neat as an option, though.

Hmm.. it doesn't make sense to me for larger empires to be WORSE at tech research. Theoretically if your empire got too big and maintenance became an issue, you'd have to lower your research percent to compensate.

As DH said, I think part of it is the issue recently discovered where "free" buildings gained via a Wonder do not go away even if you make their upgraded version.

With techs, since they are so many, the way I look at it is that instead of gaining a big tech every 6 turns, you gain several mini techs every 1 or 2. So it's like you're getting them in smaller bites more often instead of big bites less often. That is how it should be in theory anyway. I think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am getting techs far too fast on snail. After the classical era almost none are taking more than 5 turns. I am wondering if this is because I have built the wonder that gives free Scribal Schools and am building libraries everywhere also.

That's a whole other issue. Are the wonders that give free buildings too powerful? Should they only give free buildings on the same continent? Should we tweak these wonders?

On another side issue since tech have been moved around we may need to make some cost more or less. Because some times there are really expensive techs next to cheap ones. We really need some help re-evaluating their costs to be more balanced and flow better from low to high.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Something is weird in the latest SVN. My city will grow to size 3 then next tun will shrink back to size 2 even though I have +11 food and a storage pit. I was going to post a save but I was testing some new stuff - animal units and terrains so it wont be compatible.

On another side issue since tech have been moved around we may need to make some cost more or less. Because some times there are really expensive techs next to cheap ones. We really need some help re-evaluating their costs to be more balanced and flow better from low to high.

I disagree. In one of my favorite Civ II mods the cost of a tech was based on the benefits it would give. So at any time you could be faced with the choice of a number of cheep techs plus some very expensive ones.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I disagree. In one of my favorite Civ II mods the cost of a tech was based on the benefits it would give. So at any time you could be faced with the choice of a number of cheep techs plus some very expensive ones.

That too! Most of the new techs were just given whatever price their original required tech had. However since then some have been moved way around such as Camel Riding coming earlier (use to be after Trade tech) or later such as the Teleportation (use to be near the ned of the Trans-Human, now its a mid Galactic Era tec).

 

[Desolator]

I am getting techs far too fast on snail. After the classical era almost none are taking more than 5 turns. I am wondering if this is because I have built the wonder that gives free Scribal Schools and am building libraries everywhere also.

In my experience snail's (or eternity's) values should be tweaked considering the so much science/commerce building this mod has. Especially iGrowthPercent, iTrainPercent, iConstructPercent and iResearchPercent values are too low in both snail and eternity.

Something like this speed could be good (but it is quite slow in the beginning):

Spoiler :

<iGrowthPercent>800</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>500</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>700</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>700</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>900</iResearchPercent>
<iBuildPercent>500</iBuildPercent>
<iImprovementPercent>600</iImprovementPercent>
<iGreatPeoplePercent>600</iGreatPeoplePercent>
<iCulturePercent>800</iCulturePercent>
...

 

[strategyonly]

Is anyone else having this problem with the names changing of your civ?

I have UNchecked Dynamic Names (see attached), but the names are still being changed for some reason?


@Koshling:

EDIT: Got a weird occurrence, when i was being attacked by a few nations all at once, ONE of my main cities far from the borders, was taken over by a civ that i haven't even gotten around to yet, BUT my unit/soldiers guarding the city are still there and guarding the city and none of their forces are anyplace near the city

I cant give you a Max Compat when it happened BECAUSE the autosaves are NOT working, so all i have is the one after that fact. You can see Korea has taken over a port city near the top of my borders, (See atttached game)

I cant even play a game right now, because i am used to using autosave to go back one turn and see what happens if i went a different way then before

 

[Koshling]

I cant even play a game right now, because i am used to using autosave to go back one turn and see what happens if i went a different way then before

You know you can turn on the use max comopat all the time setting and it applies to auto-saves too right? I've been using that for a bout a month now, which is probably why I never noticed an issue with regular saves.

I have verified that if I turn that off I too have the regular save game issue though, so I'm working on it.

 

[Koshling]

Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned there's a bug where the food to grow drops unnaturally, and that a pre-bug savegame was needed. I think I have one for you.

Included are a before and (7 turns later) after save. Load the pre-save, and switch into the following civics: Republic, Bureaucracy, Bourgeois, Guilds, Vassalage, Church (Welfare Civic), Agricultural Guilds, and Apprenticeship. Right away you'll see the food for each city is X/1. The anarchy lasts for 7 turns, the cities all grow, and even when it ends, they all remain at X/1.

The After save is just there in case you don't really want to go through 7 turns.

Hope this helps.

I have been testing code to change the growth threshold modifiers to be multiplicative (as I already did with the storage modifiers). The code works fine (and I'll be pushing it later today) but during the investigation I found that nearly every save game I looked at had RADICALLY distorted accrued (saved) values for this modifier, with the result that PRACTICALLY EVERY game I looked at had MUCH lower food-to-grow requirements than it should have had.

I think this explains why we've been seeing such massive easy city growth in games for several releases now - whatever bug is/was present that causes this threshold to become distorted has been there for some time. I can't figure out what is causing it, but a side effect of the change to making the modifiers multiplicative is that the code I have to run to set the initial value of what gets saved in the new version calculates the CORRECT value based on the buildings and civics you have, and thus does a one-off correction of the buggy values. The effect is RADICAL, so expect a surpirse when you start a save game with a new DLL after I push this!

Now, because I have not found the cause of whatever was progressively distorting the multiplier we may well find it 'creeps back' over time in existing games (because the format conversion is a one-off fix of the values). Please be on the lookout for this as I really want to fix it if we can pin down when it happens (I am suspicious of civic changes but I can't find a hole in the code to explain it).

Note - in the long run if we are unable to pin down the cause, I can have the calculate-from-scratch run on EVRY load, but I'd prefer to avoid that if possible as it potentially ham-strings Python mods (though there is no effect on any Python we currently have as none of it touches this modifier)

Edit - fixing this problem reveals how slowly large cities SHOULD grow (well how much stored food they need) and it really is a jolt after getting used to the low values we've been seeing. Takes some getting used to. When you think about the (date) timeline though having this growth slowed I think makes perfect sense, but we'll se what people think. We might need to tweak base food-required thresholds down a bit if people find it too severe.

 

[Koshling]

Sorry if I am still confused, but math was never my strong point. Lets say you have a 100 food points. With nothing you have +0. Then you add a Granary (30%) and it goes up to +30 food right? If you add and Ice House (10%) won't that be 10% of 30 which is 3% making only 3 food? Thus why would you ever want add more food storage buildings i you could get 30 bonus food wit just a granary but only 3 bonus food with a granary plus an Ice House?

Or am I completely wrong and it works another way?

When you say 'you have 100 food points', I assume you mean 'when you have a city that requires 100 food to grow and has just reached that growth threshold' (i.e. - the city is about to grow and currently has 100 food).

With no buildings it would grow and leave 0 food.

With a granary (30%) it would grow and leave 30% (30 food)

If you were to add an Icehouse another 10% of the remainder would be added. That's 10% of the 70 you'd otherwise lose in growth, so it would leave you with 30 + 7 = 37 food after growth. The '% stored' acts to store that percentage of whatever you would otherwise lose after previous multipliers are accounted for.

Note that the ordering in this description is illusary and just serves to make the calculation easier to undrestand. So if you were to calculate the opposite way around you'd get the same result:
10% of 100 is 10 stored, leaving 90. Apply the granary to that 90 saves another 30% of 90 = 27, so again the total is 37 saved food total.

As such each building you add continues to add benefit - in effect it operates on the remainder that was not previously saved by other buildings.

I would say that science is hard enough to keep up with. With lots more techs and ever increasing costs for techs having more science than say a RoM/AND game is a must or you will never get anywhere on the tech tree. In short more techs mean you need more ways to get science and so far in my games with the buildings and civics they are not bad to keep you going.

I agree. I have no plans to touch science or maintenance currently. Just food-stored and food-required-to-grow modifiers. The only effect will be to slow city growth (especially relative to the highly distorted cases you got previously as the modifiers approached 100% (or -100% in the threshold case).

 

[Grunthex]

Brand new game, fresh install of rev529 from this afternoon. (Installed clean, not over an old directory).

In the attached save, end one turn, and Rome should grow to size 2. The food required goes to like -361 or something, causing to immediately shrink back to size 1 on next turn.

 

[Koshling]

Growth threshold changes just pushed to SVN.

Note - this is coincidental with the save game in the previous post - it may well fix that, but I have not yet looked at that game so if it does it's coincidence and I will be looking at it anyway (tomorrow)

 

[Hydromancerx]

When you say 'you have 100 food points', I assume you mean 'when you have a city that requires 100 food to grow and has just reached that growth threshold' (i.e. - the city is about to grow and currently has 100 food).

With no buildings it would grow and leave 0 food.

With a granary (30%) it would grow and leave 30% (30 food)

If you were to add an Icehouse another 10% of the remainder would be added. That's 10% of the 70 you'd otherwise lose in growth, so it would leave you with 30 + 7 = 37 food after growth. The '% stored' acts to store that percentage of whatever you would otherwise lose after previous multipliers are accounted for.

Note that the ordering in this description is illusary and just serves to make the calculation easier to undrestand. So if you were to calculate the opposite way around you'd get the same result:
10% of 100 is 10 stored, leaving 90. Apply the granary to that 90 saves another 30% of 90 = 27, so again the total is 37 saved food total.

As such each building you add continues to add benefit - in effect it operates on the remainder that was not previously saved by other buildings.




I agree. I have no plans to touch science or maintenance currently. Just food-stored and food-required-to-grow modifiers. The only effect will be to slow city growth (especially relative to the highly distorted cases you got previously as the modifiers approached 100% (or -100% in the threshold case).

Thanks for responding to these. Now that I understand what you mean, I agree with that way of doing things. Please push to the SVN if you have not already. All my previous changes (including the Strategic Grain Reserve) have been undone to the state they were before.

Thus you will still need to fix the issue of free Granary in every city even after you have made a Modern Granary.

 

[Grunthex]

Well. It "fixed" the problem in that my city now requires an extra 500 food to grow, so it'd take another 100 turns to find out! Maybe that food required bug was coming in right at the beginning of games?

Off to start a new game and see if I really do need 800 surplus food to reach size 2.