Competing VC's

I think the previous player's build item controls, whether it has hammers in it or not.

I'm fine with a rule to not bulldoze villages/towns if others are on board.

The stone is so far out that I don't see it being useful for the Pyramids. Then again, SE without mids is kind of an uphill struggle.
 
Not checked the save but if i remember right it takes 7 turns farming a floodplain so the current one should be done on turn 33, roading to the site should take 10 turns. Worker - Settler at moment takes 14 turns, if we're growing to 6 and whipping thou i'd just road the plains 1N of current floodplains we're farming and settle 1E of sheep, and then slow build another settler for the Corn+2 Ivory. Of course checking near the southern fish could change out plans if anything good is around :) The Corn + 2 Ivory site is in 2nd ring of distance maintance iirc, thou i think the guide i'm remembering about city upkeep is from before warlords so that might be out of date :)
 
Rolo are you still going to play your 5 turns?

I must say I agree with ras in regard to the cottage discussion :D They're good for nothing if you use other improvements well. I mean, build them if you want, but they kinda hurt my eyes so... Seriously, going shops here is quite a no-brainer as they give us that much flexibility for everyone to do what he fancies for his VC. Making villages/towns invincible is probably rather counterproductive as each cottage-disliking player probably just makes sure all are bulldozed first thing in the set so we are just wasting tons of worker turns :D

I don't really like the mids as well. REX gives us just as much research as boosted specs in a small empire, but we get the bonus of additional resources, more pop and hammers.
 
I must say I agree with ras in regard to the cottage discussion :D They're good for nothing if you use other improvements well. I mean, build them if you want, but they kinda hurt my eyes so... Seriously, going shops here is quite a no-brainer as they give us that much flexibility for everyone to do what he fancies for his VC. Making villages/towns invincible is probably rather counterproductive as each cottage-disliking player probably just makes sure all are bulldozed first thing in the set so we are just wasting tons of worker turns :D
Kindly explain how Workshops come anywhere even close to Villages/Towns for a Cultural Victory where, at best, 1/5th of your Great People are going to be Culture Bombed in the correct Cities. Likely, the few Great Artists that do get generated will be used-up in Golden Ages by someone else. With at least Diplo and Space pushing to research Scientific Method, Monasteries will quickly disappear and others are unlikely to spend Hammers spreading around Religions, so, you're stuck picking between building the odd, low-efficient Culture-producing building versus the odd Missionary.

Even Sid's is not much of an option, given the lack of any obvious troves of Seafood Resources. Good luck in trying to save a Great Engineer for Creative Constructions... as if someone will leave one of those sitting around instead of using it for their own agenda.

Without Cottages, a Cultural Victory = nearly an instant loss from the very beginning.
 
I thought monastery culture bonuses remain even after they become obsolete. Sistine artists are 9 base culture, I think. So with biology, a farm can support an artist -- it's not as population efficient as a town but it's not horrible.

Honestly, if we're constantly bulldozing villages/towns, we're probably going to lose to the AI. That's a big part of the reason why I don't think there's a need for a rule on those tiles.
 
After clicking enter in the end of t10, we got the wheel
Spoiler :
YARSN.jpg

As I said that I was going to do, I queued pottery

The rest of the set was pretty much waiting for the warrior to be done ( was done in t14, currently in the hill SW of cap ), end the second farm in the FP and send the worker to the forested grasshill to mine+chop ( before people start gripping on me on not making a third FP improvement, my idea is to chop the hill into a granary to be started in next set, when we finish pottery and after whipping the settler I putted on queue after the warrior ).

To end, first, some more pics ... city screen and the lands of the south as we know them.
Spoiler :
Ph5Sw.jpg


RD4p5.jpg

First, as you might have noticed I let the city to grow unhappy for the 3 pop settler whip ( don't forget that we aren't on slavery at the moment ). After that I suggest to spend the next turns ( how much of them depends on the MM ) in some tokem item and then start a granary. The chop+mine will be done in 7 turns , so take that in attention.

As you can see I discovered the location of the babylonians ... and sorry for the odd pattern of exploring, but there is a barb warrior redtailing our scouting warrior for some turns ( it is ATM 2 W 1 S of the warrior location ). Besides that, only jungle :/

EDIT and P.S. : I forgot to add, but Justinian already had Writing, since he can OB us.

 
I thought monastery culture bonuses remain even after they become obsolete. Sistine artists are 9 base culture, I think. So with biology, a farm can support an artist -- it's not as population efficient as a town but it's not horrible.

Honestly, if we're constantly bulldozing villages/towns, we're probably going to lose to the AI. That's a big part of the reason why I don't think there's a need for a rule on those tiles.
The Culture remains for Monasteries that were already built, but that's not the issue with learning Scientific Method. Even in a Cultural game, you only really ever have time to build more than 1 or 2 of those buildings per City (maybe 1 or 2 more in the capital and likely less than 2 elsewhere) if you stop research (and pour on the Cultural Slider) before learning Scientific Method. With 4 other players playing, you'll be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 Monasteries built in ANY City, beyond maybe the AP Religion's buildings, which would still only give you access to 1 set of Cathedrals. That fact implies that if you want to spread around Religions, you're going to have to spend your turnsets running Organized Religion instead of Pacifism, meaning "good luck trying to spawn Great Artists" or that you're going to only try for Great Artists and the odd 1 Cathedral per City, meaning "you can't win since most of the Great People won't be Great Artists."

If, somehow, everyone else messes up their VCs and its in the 2000 ADs, then Culture might have a chance... but then all it would take to sabotage that VC is for someone to "accidentally" pave over a couple of towns with our otherwise standing-around-doing-nothing Workers.

If there is a belief that we likely will never get to Villages or Towns, or that there will be very few of them, then there is no harm in putting the rule in place, right?

It would be roughly equivalent to a player being able to "unlearn" the knowledge of a tech for a Space game... invested turns can be wiped out very quickly. Other improvement types, however, could be back-and-forth replaced with Farms versus Workshops and in that case, the players with different uses for the improvements could just quickly undo what the last player did (since we are not allowed to delete our Workers). But, there's no way to undo the paving-over of a matured Cottage.

It would also be similar to gifting-away Cities to an AI for a Conquest game, and we went ahead and put a rule in place to prevent that possibility.

We're just putting in a minor rule in place to deal with that game dynamic (the fact that Cottages are investments and if a player choses to invest in them as their strategy, they won't be screwed over due to maliciousness).


Even in a Diplo game, where another player could maliciously declare war on the AIs to sour relations, there is always the "capitulate your war target and get your Vassal to vote for you" way to win, so even that form of maliciousness can be worked around.

In a Cultural game, though, you generally either invest in Great Artists or in Cottages, although you can also try for a later-game Sid's Culture VC. Good luck getting 10+ Great Artists in this game, and good luck getting a lot of Seafood Resources for Sid's, leaving matured Cottages as the possible solution... but who is going to invest in working Cottages if all of their investment can be undone at a moment's notice?
 
I was thinking wonders for a culture VC... It's quite likely that our game will drag into the 1900's, possibly 2000's. So early wonders will add up their culture.
 
I have played Wonder-oriented Culture games and you're not really going to win with Wonders alone. Usually, at best, one City can rely on Wonder-based Culture, but that's alongside matured Cottages, a stack of Cathedrals, and the ability to run a high Cultural Slider for most of the turns, not to mention Great Artist bombing in the other Cities.

Most of the other VCs, except for maybe Space, aren't really handicapped much more than they normally would be, while Cultural is severely handicapped in many ways. If you don't plan to build Cottages, rolo obviously doesn't want to, and mysty won't, then good luck to the 1 or 2 possible remaining players in even being able to get up to a Village... and even a Village can help any of the other VCs, so it's not like any VC would be punished for keeping the Villages and Towns around.

I'm just trying to bring in a sense of fairness for a game mechanic where generally only bad AI Worker automation or maliciousness would be used against said game mechanic.
 
By the way, if you don't want to put this rule in place, then perhaps we SHOULD allow gifting of Cities to AIs... good luck running a Cultural Slider anywhere close to 70+% if we have a lot of Cities... Cultural VC should be allowed to gift-away Cities. See where I'm going with this one?
 
Updated the report. BTW, who is up ?

I agree that the culture win player will have the roughest task of them all in here and this regardless of the no-bulldozing of cottages or not. Wonders can be easily derailed by MM even with our queue rule, specs can be hired/unhired at will, so getting GA will be hard at best and the result of sistine will be fickle, the slider will obviously not be in favour in atleast 1/5 of the time , getting corps will be almost impossible... In fact I think that the culture win player only chance is to do what shyuhe said: try to strech the game on up to the 2000ishs and hope for the best.

Anyway, the issue with any of the rules we are discussing now will/would not be needed if we could ensure that everyone would be reasonable enough to not go to extremes. Being this a competition, that is dificult to get ...
 
The roster from a few posts ago :p

shyuhe (played)
Rolo (played)
mysty (UP)
Dhoom (on deck)
Habitus

As for the culture VC issue, I think we can all agree to not bulldoze towns. Under emancipation, it only takes 15 turns for a new cottage to become a village so I don't think we can apply the same for villages. Otherwise since turn sets are 15 turns a piece, a player could plant cottages everywhere and we'd be stuck with them. Not that mature cottages are the worst tile improvements...
 
As for the culture VC issue, I think we can all agree to not bulldoze towns. Under emancipation, it only takes 15 turns for a new cottage to become a village so I don't think we can apply the same for villages.
If that's really the case, that it really only takes 15 turns to get to a Village, and if we plan to consistently stick with 15-turn turnsets, then I'm quite fine with simply not bulldozing Towns.


Otherwise since turn sets are 15 turns a piece, a player could plant cottages everywhere and we'd be stuck with them. Not that mature cottages are the worst tile improvements...
Only if we have plenty of stacks of Fast Workers that could build multiple Cottages in the span of 0 turns...


What game speed are we playing on?
 
First, as you might have noticed I let the city to grow unhappy for the 3 pop settler whip ( don't forget that we aren't on slavery at the moment ).
Why... won't... that... whip... button... work? Oh yeah, we're not running Slavery. :p


So, I guess that mysty will get to decide where to settle... and since he does not seem to be in favour of building The Pyramids, we likely won't settle near the Stone. Now's the last chance for anyone that really wants to build The Pyramids (not me) to speak up...


mystyfly said:
Making villages/towns invincible is probably rather counterproductive as each cottage-disliking player probably just makes sure all are bulldozed first thing in the set so we are just wasting tons of worker turns
Well, we have already seen the opposite effect... building Flood Plains Farms "just to reduce the chance of someone else building Cottages on those squares" instead of building faster-to-build Mines... :crazyeye:

It will be interesting to see what other inefficiencies get added-in in support of a tunnel-vision, my-VC-beats-your-VC type of mindset. :popcorn:
 
Well, we have already seen the opposite effect... building Flood Plains Farms "just to reduce the chance of someone else building Cottages on those squares" instead of building faster-to-build Mines... :crazyeye:
But food is power! Or was it land...

It will be interesting to see what other inefficiencies get added-in in support of a tunnel-vision, my-VC-beats-your-VC type of mindset. :popcorn:

I think we'll be incredibly inefficient, but barely efficient enough to beat the AI. I hope :cool:
 
shyuhe said:
(5) no player may change the tech selected for research at the start of his turn set UNLESS that tech will take longer than 15 turns (as measured by the slider at the first positive break-even point).
For tech-swapping, just to clarify, is it 15 turns at the current sustainable Science Rate for the entire tech or just for the remainder of the tech?

For example, if the sustainable rate would make the tech take another 12 turns to research but we're already halfway through research on it, would it "count" as only 12 turns or the full 24 turns in terms of the "15 or more turns for switching to a different tech" rule?


shyuhe said:
(2) no player may... engage in tech/gold trades with the AI except for the situations described in (2a);
(2a) responding to AI demands are ok (such as demands for tech, gold, stop trading) but the decision is up to the current player;
If we get techs, Gold, or Gold per turn offered to us as part of a Peace deal, are we allowed to take them?

Also, these rules seem to greatly reduce the value of going for Alphabet, since we won't be able to get techs in trade. Similarly, Aesthetics is reduced in value (except for the Wonders themselves), since normally you tech it in order to get Alphabet in trade, which we would not be allowed to do.

Since we're going to likely be very technologically backwards, some AIs are likely going to offer to gift us techs. Are we allowed to accept these gifts (which do not actually increase the amount of "liking" that an AI has towards us)?

Similarly, does "demanding Gold/a tech from an AI" fall under the definition of "AI demands" in terms of being an okay thing to do? Once again, no AI will actually like us any more than they did before for having made such a demand.

Of course, even if we do allow demands, we might want to allow only demands made of AIs that are Pleased or Friendly towards us, to avoid someone "gaming" versus a Diplo/AP win by "fake demanding" 10 times in a row in order to get a -10 negative Diplo hit with an AI that was Cautious or lower towards us to begin with.



shyuhe said:
If the first game goes well (i.e., enjoyable), I may start another one :mischief:
Maybe by then, we'll have a relatively bullet-proof version of rules. :p
 
Got it. Unfortounately I don't really have time right now but I'll post and play towards the end of the week.

Just quickly regarding the workshop-issue: Firstly I acknowledge I have limited experience with culture victories though I did a couple. But from what I see, whorkshops are far more flexible than towns. Only way towns contribute to culture is through the slider which gets multiplied by cathedrals which you (= culture player) must probably all unlock by yourself). OTOH all the hammers from workshops get converted by building culture but multiplied by a whole lot of stuff which are probably far more commonly built here.

You may say that the yield is greater with towns, it takes forever to get there. Especially if they're only worked 1/4 of the time (well, at least most likely not all the time...).


But then, hammers are essential for culture, not only for building culture. As shyuhe said you'll want a couple of wonders, and afterwards a whole bunch of other buildings, missionaries, ... Assume late-game, we unlock new culture buildings. Your culture cities are packed with towns, building takes forever and half a day. In my empire, I switch briefly to it and -bam- done.



I'm not saying towns are bad for culture, I just showed a couple of advantages of the shops, especially for this scenario we have at hand. I'd say it's completely up to the culture player to build them... I agree to leave them alone after they're villages though.


Damn you rolo; now I even have to wait to download a CFC-savegame :lol:

Oh I only just noticed, dhoomstriker's swordsman has 4 legs :nuke: :D
 
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