• We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.

Conservative Court of Appeals supports Federal gun infringement

You say this because the US has higher gun crime than countries like England, Germany, exc. Fair enough. Of course, cities have more gun crime than other places in spite of their gun control.

However, Switzerland also has broad gun rights and not as much gun crime as the US.

My real reason for the right to be arms is that it is a check on government tyranny. All else is secondary.
 
I'm willing to bet that Switzerland's crime rates are similar to those of white Americans.
 
It doesn't say the right of well regulated militiamen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. How'd they mistake "the people" for professional soldiers? If the states were in such danger, why'd they ratify a Constitution giving Congress the power to ban the sale of guns? They didn't... And the 2nd Amendment does nothing but address an armed population, from militias to the people and their weapons. But there is only 1 right "written" into that amendment to the Bill of Rights and it belongs to the people, not the states, or militias.

Another misinterpretation, unfortunately. The 2nd Amendment ("A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.") concerns itself with two things only: 1) the security of a free state (that is the Union, not the individual States), which 2) requires a well regulated militia. It is for this purpose, that "the people" shall have the right to keep and bear arms. If the writers intended for every able individual to keep and bear amrs, they would have phrased it differently. The only reason that the people's right to keep and bear amrs exists, is the security of the State.

Had the writers intended to write an article on an individual's right to keep and bear arms, any mention of State and militia would have been entirely unnecessary.

You again mention professional soldiers. But the early Union didn't have a regular army; hence the Militia. It was all they got.

4) The amendment doesn't infringe upon the states' power, the law banning sales to people under 21 infringes upon the states' militia powers.

I have no idea what this means. what is "the states' militia powers"? "The amendment doesn't infringe upon the states' power"? The amendment doesn't even concern itself with that.

I'll ask again: why does it matter if its an individual or collective right? The law violates both... And the Bill of Rights is only implicitly about individual rights? The individuals toting guns would be "the people" to whom the right belongs, if the right belonged to well regulated militiamen the Framers wouldn't have mentioned "the people". How do you explain that?

It matters very much. A purely collective right to keep and bear arms means that an individual citizen shall not have arms at his disposal - unless he's in a (para)military organization. Consequently, "ïndividuals toting guns" would be a violation of the 2nd Amendment.

"The Bill of Rights is only implicitly about individual rights"? Where was that said? By whom?

Lastly, it's pretty obvious that a state miltia with no guns would be pretty non-effective. and that's why the right of the people to keep and bear arms exists. Since no regular army was in place, there was little alternative than not to infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Basically what is intended here, is a recognition of a status quo (which laws often are). The writers were very much aware of people (again: not the people, as this is a different concept legally) having guns at their disposal. It was, at the time, the normal situation, given the often hostile Frontier.

According to Federalist 29 they wanted both, a well regulated militia backed by an armed population - and the amendment refers to both.

What they wanted - apart form a well regulated Militia - isn't inferred. That would be interpretation. Whether they wanted an armed population isn't really relevant; it already existed.

We the People of the United States

Which means exactly what it says. It doesn't say "We the People, a.k.a. the United States"

Obviously "aka" doesn't apply here. The USA wasn't known as such until the Declaration was offically published and recognized. But your example is very good, in the sense that "we the people"of the United States" doesn't refer to individuals, except in the sense that they are citizens of the state. Which was my point. Both articles concern themselves with the relation citizen vs state, as they are state documents. And in this sense an individual's rights are only implicitly mentioned, that is in sofar as they concern affairs of state.

Back to topic, applying a document written for a late 18th century situation to a 21st century situation will obviously be problematic. (Which is one reason the Amendments exist in the first place, and jurisprudence has become attached to it.)

But keeping this in mind, if the 2nd Amendment writers were concerned with having a well regulated militia, it stands to reason that arms traffic may very well have become "well regulated" also - as, to some point, it has.

At any rate, it's not quite clear how arguing against a restriction on arms trade can involve the 2nd Amendment. The example was named of freedom of speech, which obviously involves books trade, among other things. Thisnotwithstanding, most free states have regulations concerning books trade etc. Similarly, having the right to keep and bear arms (seen as an individual's right) does not preclude regulation of arms traffic.

My real reason for the right to be arms is that it is a check on government tyranny. All else is secondary.

With regard to the 2nd, that would be an argument contrary to both its content and its intent then.
 
My real reason for the right to be arms is that it is a check on government tyranny. All else is secondary.

Yes, well, no practical assortment of guns that civilians can bear hold a candle to the things our government can bring against us.

You know, you go on about government tyranny, but I haven't seen any Abrams tanks in the streets, nor seen any US cities pounded into dust by strategic bombers.
 
Yes, well, no practical assortment of guns that civilians can bear hold a candle to the things our government can bring against us.

You know, you go on about government tyranny, but I haven't seen any Abrams tanks in the streets, nor seen any US cities pounded into dust by strategic bombers.

Why does it bug people that regular people can own guns? Self defense is the most basic human right possible. There is no easier defense against any imagined threat than owning one simple gun. Even 90 year old grandmas can effectively defend themselves.

Everyone understands that real tyranny is a long ways off in the USA. Because the leaders know better than to try. ;)
 
"Real" tyranny usually depends on your viewpoint. Guantanamo Bay is a human rights abuse, let alone an act of tyranny.
 
Yes, well, no practical assortment of guns that civilians can bear hold a candle to the things our government can bring against us.

You know, you go on about government tyranny, but I haven't seen any Abrams tanks in the streets, nor seen any US cities pounded into dust by strategic bombers.

I didn't say that it was an appropriate response NOW. What I said was that
it should be an option if such a thing were to occur.

In such a situation the military might well split and civilians could potentially make a difference.

"Real" tyranny usually depends on your viewpoint. Guantanamo Bay is a human rights abuse, let alone an act of tyranny.

Naturally.

So, of course, is that guy in Britain who was arrested for his T-shirt:p

This crap happens just about everywhere. The only question is "At what point is it worth rebellion?"

I'll leave that one open-ended.
 
My problem with Obama isn't that he's black. I'd gladly elect Walter Williams for President.

My problem with Obama is that he's a big-government economically liberal pro-abortion warmongerer.

EDIT: So stop throwing racism into every freaking thing.
 
TF nailed it;)

Sarcasm aside, you do realize that there was a well organized and orchestrated campaign, waged by a government, to get the US to leave?

A better example might be Iraq, where rates of gun ownership were extremely high, and when the (oppressive, non-deposed) government was toppled, they immediately used those guns to start killing each other, rather than eject US forces?
 
Sarcasm aside, you do realize that there was a well organized and orchestrated campaign, waged by a government, to get the US to leave?

A better example might be Iraq, where rates of gun ownership were extremely high, and when the (oppressive, non-deposed) government was toppled, they immediately used those guns to start killing each other, rather than eject US forces?

That's unfortunate but its besides the point.

Had they used those guns more intelligently, maybe less people would have died because of us there?
 
My problem with Obama is that he's a big-government economically liberal pro-abortion warmongerer.

Long chains of buzzwords are like sound and fury - they signify nothing.
 
Long chains of buzzwords are like sound and fury - they signify nothing.

That's great because I wasn't really trying to use persuasion there. I just wanted Jolly to shut up about the "Everyone hates Obama because he's black" crap by giving three actual reasons that I don't approve of his presidency (Yes, I did use cheap-shot buzzwords in doing so, but since I was trying to make the point that "Its not all racism" and wasn't actually trying to persuade anyone that they too should not approve of Obama, I think my post was fine:))


You know, you go on about government tyranny, but I haven't seen any Abrams tanks in the streets, nor seen any US cities pounded into dust by strategic bombers.

I just noticed this post.

Any real rebellion would likely split the military, which might make armed popular support a legitimate factor.

But that aside, the Feds HAVING to bomb US cities into the dust, in such a legitimate rebellion, would likely help the cause, both in the eyes of the international community, and in the fact that winning by destroying the enemy is generally less satisfactory than enslaving them.
 
That's unfortunate but its besides the point.

Had they used those guns more intelligently, maybe less people would have died because of us there?

How is it beside the point? High gun ownership didn't protest the people from Saddam. It also didn't stop the US from invading and setting up a rather unpopular government. Where exactly did the guns protect them from tyranny?

Or did they use their guns to kill one another?

Any real rebellion would likely split the military, which might make armed popular support a legitimate factor.

Warfare has usually been dependent on who can raise the most cash to pay for manpower. The manpower is almost always available. The US government is just about the best organization in the world in coming up with money.
 
Warfare has usually been dependent on who can raise the most cash to pay for manpower. The manpower is almost always available. The US government is just about the best organization in the world in coming up with money.

Correction. The US government can always print more cash, and/or steal it.

Your first paragraph is a fair point, though I do suspect it would happen differently under the American tradition. You may be right, and I may be wrong, however. I still oppose any restrictions on gun ownership though.
 
Back
Top Bottom