Corporal Punishment - Do You Condone it?

[Pongui]

@RoddyVR. I share your insight on the dynamics between parent and child. For sure most punishment wasn't fated or intended to happen, but by a series of little errors, laziness in parenting, terrible twos, etc. it becomes a necessary evil.

Your nephew is a good example. Nobody wants to threaten him with hurt (emotional or physical) for doing the wrong thing, but the stage of cognitive development he's in seems to compel negative behaviour. It's like he has to say "no" to everything the parent tells him. I've talked to so many parents who see it that way, very very few who look a little deeper and realise that's just one possible pattern between parent and child around this time. They've already made up their minds that the child will defy them and that that's all there is to it, they just have to decide how to handle it. And they're wrong.

One thing that happens around this age is the kid's need for engagement with the world begins to exceed a parent's ability to answer it. So the kid persists in seeking stimulation and excitement and attention but the parent, more and more, effectively stifles the kid. The parent says "no" and so limits the kid's world, the kid then tries another way to get stimulation, and so on. Pretty soon our terrible two is way off base with mother growling "no" every twenty seconds from the other room, where she's busy because the damn kid won't just give her a break.

She would say the kid's just getting cranky.

It's important to remember that a child's neurones have an unconnected life expectancy of 3-5 years after birth. If they don't hook up to other (stimulating) neurones within that time frame, they die. You don't get any more. So what our toddlers are doing, in demanding stimulation before that deadline, is urgent and they're programmed to feel that urgency and answer it appropriately. Unfortunately, many parents do not empathise. They're often working directly against their child's instinct for varied and exciting stimulation. They may be overly protective, for example. They may be slow to recognise the child's growing aptitude. They may simply have no slack to give the child. This is a serious conflict.

And we say children just naturally grow difficult around this age.

Another thing that happens around the terrible twos is the sticky cognitive problem of learning to make choices. At some point, a child learns she can choose. But she doesn't know how. She will exercise this new function compulsively in the one way she knows how, which is to choose the negative. If she wants a cookie, and you let her choose (which she'll do because she just loves to exercise her mind making choices) she'll choose no she doesn't want the cookie. This must be frustrating (!). Some kids get through this quicker than others. Hopefully, her parents will understand what's going on and not take her persistent and pre-rational refusals too seriously, and outsmart her so she makes the right choices where it really matters.

Some parents take it personally, as an affront to their leadership. You can see where that's going.

***

I've never threatened my son with hurt of any kind. I've never had to and I doubt I ever will. I've told him some things or behaviours can hurt him of course, like the car on the road can hurt him or climbing onto the kitchen counter can hurt him, and I've stressed these warnings so he feels in his gut I'm dead serious about them. That's all, and no unreasonable discipline problems. But then he doesn't need much discipline "because" he's a remarkably well-behaved kid.

My son started into tantrums a little into his 2nd birthday, and I'll admit I let him slide such that for a while he'd throw a calculated crying fit every evening, playing baby. That went on for a few weeks until I stayed up one night for about four hours with him on the stair landing begging me to carry him to the kitchen for a cup of milk, me persisting to offer my hand and walk downstairs with him. He chose maturity in the end, and I was proud of him and he's a baby no more.

He's still in conflict between dependence and independence, and will be until he's 20, but I think he now feels basically secure in this uncertain realm. He knows I'm by his side, on his side.

***

Mostly they just need empowerment, and they'll be happy. Kids of course must and do endure a lot of frustration but their feelings of powerlessness (or childishness) can overwhelm them and make them horrible. When parents address that by making them yet more powerless - using force, for example - I think it a pretty sad state of affairs. It's answering a problem by cracking the same problem - painful to everybody - in their heads.

Better give them openings for maturity. This maturity, of course, will bear no resemblance to discipline. It's just the opposite.

***

@Newfangle. Strong words and right on.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Originally posted by Double Barrel
Corporal punishment perpetuates the cycle of violence.

In addition, it teaches children, whose mind is an empty canvas, that violence is an acceptable course of conflict resolution.

One of the problems arises when little Johnny goes to school and hits another kid out of frustration and/or anger. But, he is only acting in accordance with what he has been taught by his ultimate role models - his parents!

Whoa there, hoss. You're making a big assumption here. Namely that parents who utilize corporal punishment only do so out of anger and frustration. Beating a kid in anger and frustration is abuse. Corporal punishment is a controlled and measured amount of punishment in response to a kid doing something wrong. Every time I was punished, I was told exactly why I was wrong, and why I was being punished for it. Never in any case did I feel that that I was being punished for no reason other than to vent anger.

I do have a problem with adults smacking their children, because it indicates a lack of creativity on the part of the parents. It basically says that their kid is incorrigible, so violent action is the only recourse to solve the "problem". They lack imaginition to find other solutions. Parents act out of their basic animal instincts - violent behavior to stop what is annoying them!

And the "problem" is usually a direct result of crappy parenting!

In addition, corporal punishment occurs when parents have "had enough" - meaning they are angry! Do we, as an alleged "civilized" society, want to send the message that angry physical action is a proper recourse to address a misbehaving child?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. In order to motivate a kid to behave well, you need both a carrot, and a stick. A carrot by itself may make the horse move, and a stick by itself may make the horse move, both use both and the horse WILL move. Similarly, a child should be rewarded with good behaviour, and punished for bad behavior. You're predicating all your accusations of
punishment=bad on your impression that punishment is done because of anger, when it's not.

When does the cycle of violence end? At what point should parents have the responsibility to understand the fragile psyche of a child? Children, especially young (ie. 1-5 years old), act in accordance with what they have absorbed, usually mimicking the behavior of the adult role models in their lives.

No on is advocating taking a stick to go beat on an infant. You're beating on a strawman here. As children grow older, they have the capability to understand. Thus, if you explain to a kid that he's doing something wrong and misbehaving, and the kid continues to willfully defy his parent despite understanding so, a punishment will fix the problem. A kid should understand that negative actions result in negative consequences. When I talk of cases of beating, I don't meant that a kid should get lashed just for refusing to eat his broccoli. That's another impression that people seem to have, that a kid will get beaten just for not doing his homework. Not true. A parent just doesn't go beating on a kid for no reason. First there's the verbal reprimand, followed by more, and then the threat to use physical punishment. Often times, the mere threat is enough, and there's no need for actual hitting.

Obviously, many parents do not like themselves or the example that they have set. But, instead of deeper self-analysis in order to alter their own behavior, they choose the easy path of smacking a little person that has no option of self-defense. No wonder so many kids hate their parents.

Again, all this is predicated on the assumption that spanking is used as first resort. It's not, nor is it the "easy path".

 

[valamas]

"Stop cry'n or ill give you something to cry about!" Usually works.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
@Jeff Yu:
feel honoured that you devoted a whole A4 page of rant just for me!

And yet you didn't answer a single point in any of that. Instead of addressing any of the criticisms, or your horrible crimes against logic, you're simply restating your argument.

Ever heard of Argument Ad Nauseum? That's what you're doing. Instead of addressing any points and criticisms, you're simply spamming forth your same essential point over and over and over again.

How many parents think a child is their property to whack around whenever stress or depression takes a toll?

Instead of answering a question with a question, why don't you try proving that this is actually true?

Very many - and people like your good self go out on a limb to hold up this awful tradition of violence as a meritious action.

And please don't try to tell me these are isolated incidents - it is widespread!

Now that's a fine assertion. Go ahead and justify it. How about some numbers and statistics?

That no other method can truly work, rather than a firm beating, as if the child is automatically going to learn from pain?

Ok, buddy, burden of proof is on you now. You make the claims, you make darn sure you back up those statements. At what point did I say that corporal punishment is the ONLY method? Did you completely ignore my posts where I said that corporal punishment shouldn't used exclusively but as one of various disciplinary methods?

So please don't try to sell me this line that talking firmly and frankly to a child, or using the reward method has no merit.

It works, and leaves less pain and mental hurt than the barbaric option.
Excuse me, but I must >

You've completely and utterly ignored what I said. Allow me to highlight in bold.
A parent should have the option of both the carrot AND the stick. AT NO POINT DID I SAY THAT THE REWARD SYSTEM HAS NO MERIT. I said that punishment should supplement the merit system.


Now, in your next post, instead of simply vomitting forth the same tired arguments and appeals to emotion, how about seeing some actual points of merit which actually address what I said, instead of beating down the same old strawman?

 

[Pongui]

You've been arguing well - better than I can - Jeff Yu, but to be honest I think CurtSibling's more keenly aware of what passes between the lines than your well-thought words. What I sense there is an unsympathetic and uninsightfull attitude towards children, and a conviction that children will misbehave and you will correct them. Your attitude, and indeed your "system" seems all lined up towards inevitable progressions of badness in children, and inevitably stronger punishments. This looks like your destiny as a parent, and I'm sure you're comfortable with that because it's what you know. The language you use to talk about children is like the language of dog trainers, or horse trainers. See, you speak these things without meaning to, and it comes back at you, muddled again, in debate.

I was hoping you would read what I had to say from the child's point of view, about some reasons conflicts develop between parents and their toddler aged children. I'm wondering now if you actually care what's going on in the minds of these kids, or if they are just a sort of dog to you. I do believe that with some insight and empathy, anyone can understand a child and anticipate a child's feelings and often thoughts. This is how we structure things such that children generally want to do the same things at the same times we'd like them to, as if by luck. Can you outsmart a child, so punishment's unnecessary, Jeff Yu?

 

[Double Barrel]

@Sean Lindstrom, awesome posts, man! Well said. I wholeheartedly agree with you that parents fails to understand the nature of a toddler's mind, and in doing so, they fail to take advantage of the opportunity for positive reinforcement.

@Jeff Yu: I appreciate your points, but I just don't agree with them. I'm not perpetuating a straw man, because it is the difference of instilling fear vs. earning respect.

You are assuming the fallacy that there is only one kind of carrot/stick to promote the behavior that you desire from a child. However, this is limited thinking. The nature of children is very simplistic; their thinking very linear. Once you, as a parent, can recognize the origin of their thoughts, you have many, many options available to you for recourse. By promoting brute force to coerce fear to obtain results, you automatically limit your ability to use other tactics. In addition, with a basic understanding of the immaturity of children, you will find that you have many options available for punishment of negative actions, the least of which should be corporal. Too often, spanking becomes routine, and any chance at reasoning and earning respect. And respect is a much better (ie. more civilized) form of behavior control than fear.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
@Roddy:

I still stick to my stance - in most case, violence is the mark of a frustrated mind that cannot reason.

Diplomacy can solve most of these ills you talk of.

You keep making the mistake of identifying a spank as violence. Violence against children is wrong, but spanking is NOT violence.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Just how is spanking not violence?

 

[Jeff Yu]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
You've been arguing well - better than I can - Jeff Yu, but to be honest I think CurtSibling's more keenly aware of what passes between the lines than your well-thought words. What I sense there is an unsympathetic and uninsightfull attitude towards children, and a conviction that children will misbehave and you will correct them. Your attitude, and indeed your "system" seems all lined up towards inevitable progressions of badness in children, and inevitably stronger punishments. This looks like your destiny as a parent, and I'm sure you're comfortable with that because it's what you know. The language you use to talk about children is like the language of dog trainers, or horse trainers. See, you speak these things without meaning to, and it comes back at you, muddled again, in debate.

I was hoping you would read what I had to say from the child's point of view, about some reasons conflicts develop between parents and their toddler aged children. I'm wondering now if you actually care what's going on in the minds of these kids, or if they are just a sort of dog to you. I do believe that with some insight and empathy, anyone can understand a child and anticipate a child's feelings and often thoughts. This is how we structure things such that children generally want to do the same things at the same times we'd like them to, as if by luck. Can you outsmart a child, so punishment's unnecessary, Jeff Yu?

Thanks for the well thought out reply. You seem to misunderstand me somewhat, though. I wouldn't go and hit and toddler-aged child between 1 and 5, because a kid at that age has no conception of right and wrong, and thus isn't responsible for his actions. I sure wouldn't be able to bring myself to hit a 5 year old kid, and I wasn't punished at those ages either. However, at older ages, once a kid is at school and beyond, he or she does understand the difference between right and wrong, and if he continues to be bad, I think punishment is justified.

You've been very reasonable with me so far, unlike some of the people on this board who want to demonize all spanking parents as baby-killing, child-abusing, violent neanderthals. I'll explain a situation in which I think spanking is justified.

Wrong: A toddler spills his glass of milk. Parent takes stick and beats him bloody. This seems to be the impression of a lot of posters.


Here's a hypothetical situation where I would actually use spanking:

Right: A child, despite constant warnings and reprimands, keeps bullying his younger sibling. Inevitably, the child plays too rough, and his younger sibling suffers a serious injury, like a knock on the head or falling down the stairs. Parent gives child a thorough spanking, and then afterwards gives a long lecture explaining why he should have known better, why he was wrong, how much hurt he inflicted on his sibling, why he was punished for it, etc etc. Afterwards, parent makes him apologize to his younger sibling. If he remains unrepentent, more spanking.

Having been recipient to spanking punishments before, I can testify that I wasn't traumatized, I did realize the error of my ways, and no, I didn't harbor a resentment, hatred, or fear of my parent.


Question to everybody:
Now, at which point in this situation did I react with anger, vent my frustrations upon the child, treat him like a dog or a horse or other furry animal, lash out in violence, horribly abuse and main that kid, sacrifice him to Satan for my cult purposes, etc? Should a parent in this situation be locked up in jail?

@ Sean: Ok, your son has been playing rough, and as a result, your younger child has been hurt. Explain how in this situation you would outsmart your child so that punishment is unneccesary. (I would consider a stern lecture to be a punishment, btw)


Those who aren't parents will probably argue that they'll be such perfect parents that such a situation wouldn't happen in the first place. Actual parents, however, will probably agree that no one can be perfect in raising a child, and that at some points kids will be kids and they will misbehave. They might disagree on the methods of discipline used. That's fine; I'm not telling anyone how to raise their kid. However, I am getting sick of seeing parents who spank being demonized as baby killers, child abusers, violent drunk fanatics, depraved lunatics, etc, etc. I know of many very good parents who practice spanking, and seeing such labels is horribly offensive.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Just how is spanking not violence?

Violence involves an intent to bring physical harm to someone else. A spank or a light smack in the face for the purpose of discipline is not intended to injure, but to discipline. Sure, it's meant to sting for a few seconds, but I don't think that really constitutes physical harm - the kid is in no worse shape than he was beforehand. It goes too far once the adult starts actually injuring the child.

 

[Mano3]

I agree with corporal punishment.

I know when my parents whooped my butt, it straightened me out!

In Delaware, my son attended a school without corporal punishment. He got into trouble all the time because of disrespecting teachers.

We moved to Alabama where corporal punishment is used. Amazingly, my son is perfect in his conduct and never gets into trouble...

Any teachers out there at less than perfect schools? I bet they wish they had corporal punishment as a tool.

 

[The Last Conformist]

metalhead: That's not a definition of violence I was familiar with. But the distinction you're making is sensible.

***

I'm not saying that parents who spank their children are necessarily bad parents, nor that spanking/corporeal punishment cannot be effective. I, however, remain unconvinced that it's a necessary tool in the arsenal of a good parent. Sweden illegalized it decades ago, and as far as I know I belong to the minority in having been subjected to it even once. Yet, I see no reason to believe that children in Sweden are growing up to be any less well-behaved than in countries were it is still common. We're supposed to have a pretty low rate of youth delinquency.

 

[metalhead]

I don't believe it's necessary, either. Just like any other form of disciplinary measures, it has its good points and bad points. I think it is most useful when trying to teach a kid a lesson when they do something that could get them seriously injured or killed - ie, running into the street, drinking things under the kitchen sink, playing with tools in the garage, etc. Trying to tell them that they could die isn't going to mean a lot to a kid who is 3 or 4 years old. Letting them know that a swift swat in the ass is coming if they do it again will. Making them understand why that kind of behavior is bad is not important in those situations. Keeping them from doing it again is.

 

[Hundegesicht]

I was a spanked as a kid and it didn't do anything, for good or for bad, so my opinion is necessarily neutral. I suppose it might help for obstinate, stupid kids and be bad for sensitive ones, though I was neither growing up so it had no impact on my personality.

 

[addiv]

Originally posted by Hundegesicht
I was a spanked as a kid and it didn't do anything, for good or for bad, so my opinion is necessarily neutral. I suppose it might help for obstinate, stupid kids and be bad for sensitive ones, though I was neither growing up so it had no impact on my personality.

Exactly what I think too. For some kids it might work, for other kids it won't. Too bad many parents can't tell very well if it's needed for their children or not, so you get a lot of trouble. And then their are the psychos who abuse their kid, of course that's never justified.
To the people who say you should always try to reason with a kid: children are not adults and therefore should not be as such. Reasoning with them is not always possible. Sometimes a box on the ears or something like that is the only thing that will work.

 

[Pongui]

Originally posted by Jeff Yu
A child, despite constant warnings and reprimands, keeps bullying his younger sibling...

Again, you're saying a lot more than you intend to! I'll address that first, then answer your question.

Firstly, if a child is receiving "constant warnings and reprimands" from her parents, something's very wrong to begin with. This kind of environment is absolutely poisonous to healthy moral development. I've watched it at work, and in all cases it starts with the parent. If you create an environment of "constant warnings and reprimands" then the child will adapt to it, and you'll soon find those warnings and reprimands carry little weight with the child. This starts small and can snowball out of control.

The only person who can stop it is the parent. Alas, the same parents who unwittingly lead their kids in this dance see only one means of ending it, and that is to threaten a visceral climax where gut fear over-rules a child's natural compensation for escalating reprimands. This has nothing to do with developing a sense of right and wrong. This is the id wresting control from the ego.

And it's entirely in the hands of the parent.

Secondly, if a child persistently bullies a younger family member, as in your example, then something else is very wrong to begin with. One should ask where the child learned this behaviour, and why the child feels such determined compulsion to act it out. One should find the root of the problem. In my experience, bullying is always traceable to bullying, as is snatching, as are all modelled behaviours sweet or vicious. One can learn a lot about parents by observing their children.

(Description of escalation to resolution by punishment) Now, at which point in this situation did I react with anger, vent my frustrations upon the child, treat him like a dog…

Were you acting out of anger? I can’t tell what you feel, but I can tell what I do. I’m angered by my kid’s behaviour sometimes. When he drives a train of pastel markers across the carpet, this having the delightful virtue of drawing its own track behind it, for example, I get angry. Now I don’t respond as you would, but if I claimed not to feel angry or claimed not to vent my anger right then and there (harmlessly), I’d be lying to you or deluding myself. It’s hard for me to imagine feeling punishment necessary without feeling angry at the same time.

Were you venting your frustrations? Plainly. The scenario described of nagging an unresponsive child is a paragon of parental frustration. You deny it? When we look to your behaviour and not the child’s, venting frustration and resolving frustration are one and the same.

Were you treating the child like a dog? Yes. People treat dogs much as you described. You apply classic conditioning. You wouldn’t dare treat an adult that way. Moreover, your focus is purely on eliciting wanted behaviour without consideration of the child’s true motive for showing you that behaviour. You would “make him apologize to his younger sibling”, for example. This is how sociopaths are made. Sociopaths are people whose thoughts and actions derive from id and adaptation – they come in many shades but all operate with pragmatic or purely simulated (non-existent) morals. I guess we all have a little sociopath in us. Dogs are good examples of well-meaning sociopaths.

When you spank the child you cut directly to the id – you make him a baby – and you can’t possibly connect this level of psyche with “why he should have known better, why he was wrong, how much hurt he inflicted on his sibling, why he was punished for it, etc etc.” You may see a behavioural change but this is purely an id adaptation, not moral development of the ego.

Personally, I feel “saying sorry” absolutely hollow and in fact harmful to healthy development when forced, and I’ve sometimes intervened when friends tell their kids to “say sorry” to my son. For his part, when he’s upset or hurt another kid, after I’ve explained to him what happened and drawn attention to the problem that now the kid is upset, his empathy naturally kicks in and (he doesn’t know the word “sorry” yet) he’ll pet the other kid’s head and hug him and sloppily mirror the behaviour I’ve shown him when he’s hurt. Maybe he’ll solemnly offer the kid some object of value only to toddlers. This seems infinitely more genuine and fruitful than your lesson in deceit of “saying sorry”.

Ok, your son has been playing rough, and as a result, your younger child has been hurt. Explain how in this situation you would outsmart your child so that punishment is unneccesary

If you’ve followed me so far, an explanation here shouldn’t be necessary. But I’ll sketch it.

First of all, I’d consistently show him that the one and only appropriate response to an other’s suffering is empathy and care. Whenever he’s upset, I’d teach him what to do by example. That should come naturally. I’d also teach him, as he grows more aware, that people look out for each other and try to make each other happy. He’d naturally try to copy my example by helping me with my shoelaces and putting food into my mouth and handing me the toilet paper and I’d thank him and carry on about what a good boy he is and make him feel powerful in this. I’d also show him with dolls and cats and smaller babies how to be gentle.

There. Now he thinks just the way I wish him to, and his behaviour won’t stray far from that.

Why would such a kid require punishment or even a reprimand? The times my son has made another kid cry he’s been shocked and bewildered just as much as the “victim”, and I’ve had to reassure him it’s no big deal, just be gentle. Hurting others is alien to him. These experiences simply reinforce what he already knows.

My son will be three this summer, only three, but he seems so solid already. I don’t believe any worm can really change him now. I expect he’ll be a fiendish teen, and I’ll covertly lay some paths for his harmless rebellion. Maybe I’m a fool, and a monster’s just waiting to happen. Maybe he’ll fall in with a Bad Influence. Maybe he’ll make a martyr of me. Well, like any other poster here, I can say my own upbringing did me no harm, and I’ll give my kid something similar. I was never spanked, and was an easy kid to raise. So it is with my son, and it has nothing to do with genetics.


I shouldn’t take all the credit for this. He has a wonderful mother. Most of all he, like each of us, was a good kid from day one, and on the right track. Sometimes I’ve thwarted him and stood in his way. It’s not always easy to be a good parent, though overall I believe it’s a lot easier than being a bad one.