COTM 09 Pre-game Discussion

[Riccett]

The only thing I don't like about moving the worker W is the fact that it could possible only reveal one tile (the hill), which IMO will help very little in the placement of capital. By sending the worker SW to the hill first, that will reveal a lot more land.

Still making a decision on research, but still leaning towards Writing @ 100%. The time it takes to research pot first could be the difference in a monopoly tech and a 3rd or 4th place finish to Writing.

 

[Xevious]

The only thing I don't like about moving the worker W is the fact that it could possible only reveal one tile (the hill), which IMO will help very little in the placement of capital. By sending the worker SW to the hill first, that will reveal a lot more land.

Actually it will reveal 3 hills, 2SW, 3NW and 2NW/N of the start. If there's a hill 3SW it will reveal that too. The problem is, the only resources on hills that we can see at the start are gold, sugar, wines and incense. Wines and incense are unlikely to be so close to ivory. Gold is nice for research but not something I'd necessarily go for in the capital. Sugar is the only really good thing, but it's only the equivalant of a BG in Despotisim, and a costly one to improve (twice as long to road/mine).

All that said, moving SW only uncovers only 4 tiles, two hills (2SW and 2SW/S), the other 2 apparently plains (2SW/W and 2W/SW), and one of those appears to be ivory (2SW/W). So a move SW doesn't seem to buy us anything, especially since you're not going to work that spot anyway.

All things considered, there's not a lot of useful land uncovered in one movement. I have to agree with Sir Pleb's opening move of worker W. From there though (assuming we don't see something good), it might be good to gamble and move the settler SW. He would still be on a coastal square, and bring more ivory into the capital radius. On the second turn I would consider moving the worker S or W before settling. This gives us a wide field of view for river hunting. I'm tempted to move south just because if there IS a river running through the desert there should be some floodplains. The downside is there's a hill S of the 2SW hill which will block some of the southern view. I think that I wouldn't want to move away from the coast if at all possible making the worker W,S more likely.

 

[solenoozerec]

Attack strength of barbarian warriors and galleys increased to 2.

I am not sure that I understand . Does it mean that barbarian warriors will look like warriors but act like archers?
What about barbarian horsemen?

 

[AlanH]

Yes, barbarian warriors will have A/D/M of 2.1.1, like archers. They won't have a free defensive shot though, so no, they won't act exactly like archers. Barbarian horsemen are not mentioned, so they are unchanged.

 

[Renata]

The predator barb warriors will look like Enkidu warriors, actually, and the predator barb galleys will look like carracks. (They've been renamed to "predator warrior" and "predator galley", respectively.) Stats and abilities will be same as for the equivalent normal barbarian units, with the single exception of the attack stat, which will be 2 instead of 1. As Alan stated, the barb horses have not been altered.

Now I suppose that tells you that neither Portugal nor Sumaria is in the game, but you were all going to check F10 first thing, anyway, right?

Renata

 

[ainwood]

Should have used privateers

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

After some more review:

I'm in a quandry with this atypical map. It would be neat to have a circle land mass with lots of islands internal and external. Enough conjecture.

I have to say this is the first game in a very long time I wanted to build 2 AA Wonders: Temple of Zeus and Great Lighthouse. Of course I'd rather capture than build, but wonder if we are alone.

I really think I will follow the SirPleb/Klarius plan of Pottery - Republican Slingshot. Probably Math afterwards for ToZ. Then MM for Lighthouse. Boy is that agressive and probably not possible. All other early 'junk' I hope I meet someone to trade for.

I'll think I'll start w/ a Curragh. Then debate of Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Granary vs Granary-Settler. I really think I'll go with the first option.

For the worker, I'm not to terribly concerned about connecting the ivory early unless I see fresh water to irrigate it also as I won't grow to size 3 for a while. Will probably Mine/Road all the BG's first, also chop and mine oasis (unless I go the granary route in which case chopping will be required after 2 mines w/ no roads).

If I don't see any good second city sites, I'm consider 2W to be able to share the BG's while I pump out settlers. Really hoping for some Flood Plains to the South to settle that direction or 3 cows over the hills.

@SirPleb, Klarius & others - how do you decide how many turns makes it worth it to go min vs max research? Seems like this could be a sliding scale, but it would seem early on that 40+ turns (after future growth considerations) would imply money that can be used for other trades may make the 10 turn delay worth it.

 

[StrictlyRockers]

Berserk units are the first unit that is allowed to invade enemy units or structures from sea-based transport vessels. I wonder if that is going to come in to play on this atypical map. Cities on single tile islands can be hard to take.

 

[a space oddity]

That's it! The world will be polka dotted with 1 tile islands, we'll all just have to wait for the AI to settle them and let us leisurely take all the scantly defended towns with mighty axes falling from the longboats.... (ok, ok, galleys then. ).

 

[klarius]

@SirPleb, Klarius & others - how do you decide how many turns makes it worth it to go min vs max research? Seems like this could be a sliding scale, but it would seem early on that 40+ turns (after future growth considerations) would imply money that can be used for other trades may make the 10 turn delay worth it.

On low difficulty levels I would say everything below 50 turns may be worth it. The money doesn't help you, because you will be tech leader soon anyways.
If it's clearly below 40 turns like in this game it's no doubt for me.

 

[SirPleb]

On low difficulty levels I would say everything below 50 turns may be worth it.
...
If it's clearly below 40 turns like in this game it's no doubt for me.

I totally agree. If you can get to a diplomatic or space win even a few turns earlier, is it worth the gold? Or in the case of a conquest goal if you guess that you'll need Cavalry to finish off your rivals, what's the value in gold of having them a few turns earlier?

I've gotten more and more aggressive about this over time. I now think that if I can potentially gain even a few turns toward my long term goal that's worth quite a bit of gold. Because it will take a very large amount of gold to increase my chances as much by any other means - research is likely to be the limiting factor.

 

[klarius]

I totally agree.

Well, I knew this. I learned this attitude from your posts.
Just sneaked in a post before the master , knowing you would anyway say about the same.

 

[Niklas]

Or in the case of a conquest goal if you guess that you'll need Cavalry to finish off your rivals, what's the value in gold of having them a few turns earlier?

It might be that you have 20 or so knights standing around just waiting to be upgraded, which will cost you a neat "value in gold".

But I admit I'm picking at details, in general I definitely agree with you. The gold is only important if you have somewhere you really need to put it, and in this case research at max sure seems the way to go.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Could it be that once you get Chivalry you can switch off research anyway? In just a couple of turns you'll earn back what you lost early on.

 

[Hannabir]

@SirPleb, Klarius & others - how do you decide how many turns makes it worth it to go min vs max research? Seems like this could be a sliding scale, but it would seem early on that 40+ turns (after future growth considerations) would imply money that can be used for other trades may make the 10 turn delay worth it.

It depends on how isolated we are. If there are neighbours that can provide us with cash, I'd say that even saving 2 turns on getting to The Republic is worth more than the gold saved by minimum research on Writing. If otoh upkeep becomes a factor, minimum research might be best, since otherwise the research on Code of Laws and Philosophy will be slowed down and the turns gained on Writing will be lost again.

 

[Niklas]

Could it be that once you get Chivalry you can switch off research anyway? In just a couple of turns you'll earn back what you lost early on.

True, I admit I didn't consider that.
Bad example, but still, there will be times when you will need those money. Doesn't really matter though, my main point was really the opposite, that money will only be important if you have something specific in mind to spend them on.

 

[denyd]

I'm more likely to skip Chivalry and research to Invention, where the Berserks live and then pointy stick Chivalry out of someone. I'm not sure how much value knights are going to be in this game, with 80% water, there may not be many cities that aren't coastal, so the Berserks which hit 50% harder and cost the same would seem to be the way to go.

For those thinking warrior->warrior->something, don't forget about curraghs.

 

[Abegweit]

I'm more likely to skip Chivalry and research to Invention, where the Berserks live and then pointy stick Chivalry out of someone. I'm not sure how much value knights are going to be in this game, with 80% water, there may not be many cities that aren't coastal, so the Berserks which hit 50% harder and cost the same would seem to be the way to go.

Very good point. I'll certainly keep it in mind. It does seem that Renata has designed this map for Berserks, doesn't it? Have to think about archers too, then, as we happened to be talking about on another thread.

 

[solenoozerec]

I now think that if I can potentially gain even a few turns toward my long term goal that's worth quite a bit of gold.

I am not sure that what I used to do in my games is smart and I probably will try to get rid of the following habit: I spend on entertainment significantly more than is needed to keep citizens from rioting.
Obviously, it results in later victories, but I also some times get higher score than of those who finished earlier:

No need to say that there is no one above who finished this game later than me.
But I have to say that my high score is mostly due to high entertainment spending and not milking micromanagement.
The reason why I am doing it is not keeping score high.
I simply trying to create a buffer of happiness that prevent sudden riots (e.g. in case of war weariness citizens become less happy, they do not riot) and also I like to have ILTKD celebrations.

 

[Renata]

It does seem that Renata has designed this map for Berserks, doesn't it?

Could be. But then, given how amazingly unstoppable Berzerks are, I wonder how this comment fits in?

because this might be a little bit more difficult than your average Monarch game.

Hmmm ....

I'll be out of town for the next few days -- enjoy the speculation.

Cheers,
Renata