Cover

[MCan]

Nothing major. What do you all think of cover as a promo, especially as a CR replacement?

 

[MilesBeyond]

I like it if used sparingly. It's a fairly specialized ability, since it's useless beyond the Medieval ages (which means that if you upgrade your troops, they'll be stuck with a wasted promotion spot) and even prior to Gunpowder, it's assuming that enemy cities will be mostly defended by archery units.

Fortunately, with the AI, that's a very valid assumption that you can usually expect to be true. As a result, Cover on a handful of soldiers can give you a nice boost.

As to whether it's more effective than CR, that's a tougher question. CR has the obvious bonus of remaining relevant with upgrades. Additionally, Cover requires C1. I'm going to try and do the math here, which is a spooky thing because I have no idea how the mechanics work and only know that they're quite counter-intuitive and function very differently than how you would think.

C1+Cover = 2 promos, +10% vs cities (C1), +35% vs archers in cities (Cover + C1)

CR1+CR2 = 2 promos, +45% vs cities

So, assuming that this is a correct depiction of the game mechanics, (which it almost certainly is not), CR seems to be more effective vs cities. Cover is, of course, much more effective outside of cities, but that will rarely be an issue...

So, in the end, I would rarely, if ever, go for Cover over CR.

That being said, if you're AGG, and therefore have C1 free, Cover would be marginally more effective than just having CR 1. However, CR 1 unlocks CR 2 and 3, while Cover unlocks nothing, so even then it's still not really worth it.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

I'm no warmonger, but the only time I use Cover very often is if I expect to see archery units outside of cities. Very-early-game Barb slayers, for example. Otherwise, if the unit will be attacking cities that have Archers, I'll usually give it CR1 to deal with the Axes too.

 

[admtanaka]

I generally only use cover if I am aggressive and axe rushing.

 

[Manco Capac]

On IMM/deity, if you have not widespread swathing fog land, AGG warriors can take cover as first promo and protect decently against archers. One of the few uses of AGG trait.

 

[Manco Capac]

I generally only use cover if I am aggressive and axe rushing.

For a mere 5% more percent (which changes the final odd only slightly), I largely prefer CR line. But my suicide axes can sometimes take it.

 

[Alchemind]

Cover materia in FFVII was really good when equipped with Barrett because you could put him the back rank without long-range materia and receive 50% less damage anyway, plus he had the most HP early game.

 

[CocoIsKing28]

If you specialize your troops to do better against archers, then a city with other units might have better odds using the other type, making cover useless. That's why I prefer the less case-specific CR.

 

[admtanaka]

I assume the point of this thread wasn't whether or not people advocate the promotion of cover to every axe, because I'm sure no one does that. I still don't think using it for quite a few axes is a mistake though.

Cover may be only marginally better than CR and even then only in the short term but of course, when you are axe rushing, you sacrifice long term efficiency for the increased value of that enemy capital that much earlier. Chopping every forest in my capital's BFC pre-mathematics isn't very efficient either unless you consider the value in having that many units that much earlier.

Remember also that axe rushing someone who spams units (say Ragnar) at Immortal means you are very likely to have to fight some archers in the field, and CR doesn't do a lick of good in that circumstance. I assume the same is true on deity to the extent that an axe rush is even feasible (and it might not be, I've never tried it).

 

[Antilogic]

I'll use it if I'm attacking a Civ with an archer (or crossbow!) UU, because they tend to use more archer units in the field where cover would make a difference. Sometimes, if an opponent lacks iron, they will have a significant number of longbows in field stacks as well and that can be an opportunity to use Cover effectively.

I don't worry so much about upgrading units because it's incredibly expensive and I tend to replace through attrition (old units die in combat or become inner city garrisons, new units are produced and sent to the front).

 

[nerdfighter13]

I usually try to have a mix of cover and CR. I almost always give a unit combat 1 first and then pick one of those two, because in war time I have barracks and run either theocracy or vassalage.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I like it if used sparingly. It's a fairly specialized ability, since it's useless beyond the Medieval ages (which means that if you upgrade your troops, they'll be stuck with a wasted promotion spot) and even prior to Gunpowder, it's assuming that enemy cities will be mostly defended by archery units.

Fortunately, with the AI, that's a very valid assumption that you can usually expect to be true. As a result, Cover on a handful of soldiers can give you a nice boost.

As to whether it's more effective than CR, that's a tougher question. CR has the obvious bonus of remaining relevant with upgrades. Additionally, Cover requires C1. I'm going to try and do the math here, which is a spooky thing because I have no idea how the mechanics work and only know that they're quite counter-intuitive and function very differently than how you would think.

C1+Cover = 2 promos, +10% vs cities (C1), +35% vs archers in cities (Cover + C1)

CR1+CR2 = 2 promos, +45% vs cities

So, assuming that this is a correct depiction of the game mechanics, (which it almost certainly is not), CR seems to be more effective vs cities. Cover is, of course, much more effective outside of cities, but that will rarely be an issue...

So, in the end, I would rarely, if ever, go for Cover over CR.

That being said, if you're AGG, and therefore have C1 free, Cover would be marginally more effective than just having CR 1. However, CR 1 unlocks CR 2 and 3, while Cover unlocks nothing, so even then it's still not really worth it.

It's fairly close, but it's not quite the case that Combat I + Cover is a 35% modifier. It's because of a quirk in the rules that means combat promotions always apply to the strength of the attacker whereas every other type of promotion changes the strength of the defender.

For example, if an archer has managed to accumulate 145% of bonus defense (e.g. from being in a city with some culture defense, on a hill, with a CG promotion or two, fortified etc.) then an attacker with Combat I and Cover would have identical odds to an attacker with CR1 and CR2.

It takes a bit of maths, but I worked out the following:

If you have a defender with total defense modifier TDM%, then the reduction in defender strength from having Combat I + Cover (or Combat I with any other 25% promotion) is (350+TDM)/11.

Examples:
A defender with 35% defense bonuses (e.g. an archer with combat 1 with 5 turns fortified on flat terrain), means Combat I + Cover on the attacker would produce effectively (350+35)/11 = 35% defense reduction.
A defender with 145% defense bonus means Combat I + Cover on the attacker would produce a (350+145)/11 = 45% defense reduction (that's good value).
A defender with 200% defense bonus (which is starting to get a bit high to be realistic) would mean Combat 1 Cover attacker produces a (350+200)/11 = 50% defense reduction.

To summarise, combat promotions become better and better choices for attackers as defense modifiers start getting really high. As has been mentioned because a choice of promotions like combat + a counter promotion can be applied in more situations than just city attacks, sometimes it's worth it to take that instead of the CR line for some of your attackers.

Because archery units tend to receive some of the highest defense bonuses in the game, it wouldn't be too uncommon for that combat I + cover combination to be a good choice.

Of course, you then miss out on CR3, but this is just another reason why promotion choices can be interesting. There are always situational factors to consider.

 

[Iranon]

True, but the same mechanic makes C1+Cover loses ground to C2.

Bit of an extreme case: Walled city (+50%) on a hill (+25%) defended by a fortified (+25%) archer (+75%) with City Guard 2 (+45%) for a total of +220%.

A C2 Axeman attacking: 5+20% : 3+220%, ratio of 0.625
A C1Cover Axeman attacking: 5+10% : 3+195%, ratio of 0.621
A CR2 Axeman attacking: 5 : 3+175%, ratio of 0.606



Comparative low end: Flatland City without defenses held by a fortified (+25%) archer (+50%) with CG1 (+20%) for a total of +95%.

C2 Axeman attacking: 5+20% : 3+95%, ratio of 1.026
C1 Cover Axeman attacking: 5+10% : 3+75%, ratio of 1.048
CR2 Axeman attacking: 5 : 3+50%, ratio of 1.111

C1Cover doesn't really have a sweet spot where it vastly outshines both straight Combat and straight City Raider. I wouldn't promote more than 1 or 2 melee units that way, because the alternatives are reliably useful regardless of defender.

 

[AdamCrock]

City Raider and Cover is situational promo. It has worked for me countless of times not to promote my units at all (leave them in a "stand by" mode untill they face an enemy) until they face a combat situation. If You need defensive or "general purpose" army promote some of Your "core" troops to combat and/or drill. Havinng some garrison troops in a offensive army is good as well if You even consider capturing (holy/shrine city for example) instead of razing. While city is in anarchy disorder (resistance) You do not pay maintenance costs for it so capturing may be good for some small - fast to conquer situations. All in all - never promote cover unless it is necessary (shame to loose all of those xp points)

 

[strijder20]

Cover obsoletes and doesn't lead to more powerful promotions. Archers outside of cities aren't exactly strong (unless we're talking about crossbows when you don't have knights or Celtic longbows on hills) so you don't need the extra edge out the cities either. Combat line / CR line are better choices - while cover might indeed be more useful in a few rare situations, the other two promotion lines do better all round.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yeah, I still rarely use it because it obsoletes. But more generally the idea of Combat I + a 25% "counter" promotion can still be good. Iranon, I agree with everything you wrote, the only addition being that C1+counter make for very good defenders too, where C2 is crap and obviously CR2 useless.

On Cover specifically though, I suppose it's not often that the threat of attack from archery units is too much worry.

 

[AdamCrock]

Some guys don't care what happens in modern age Thay say it is all determined in a bronze age ! If You are no best there Your nothing haha xD

 

[AdamCrock]

PS. In conclusion "Holy" Roman Empire should be dominant on Earth hehe

 

[rfcfanatic]

The AI always puts up the strongest defender. When you try to attack with a Cover unit, the defending unit may not even be an archery unit. In that case CR II is more flexible than Cover + Combat I.