Creation/Force/Dimensional Lore

[the_fish]

For the sake of symmetry and completeness, I think most people agree that these three magic spheres should be in the main game, and not left to a modmod.

From what I can gather, Kael says that they could be implemented if suitable and balanced spells were created, just good ideas are currently sparse. As to what these spells might be is a topic for the main thread.

I was wondering if we could get any backstory on these three and their angels - perhaps examples of magic from the D&D campaigns. Currently all we have to go on are the names, which are wildly open to interpretation. A more concrete view would allow us to better focus our efforts.

Specific questions:

Is "Creation" to do with fertility (like Amatheon), magical generation of matter/objects, enhancing nonmagical construction, or creativity? Or something else entirely?

Is "Force" to do with 'physics magic', diplomacy, or making things 'fair'? What does 'balance' (Dagda) refer to?

Is "Dimensional" more about teleportation or summoning? Does it have any effect other than through portals of some sort?

Which technologies would unlock each type of mana?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Creation is about Fertility, Birth, Creativity, etc. It is about the emergence of new things, not merely the growth and maturation exemplified by the Nature sphere. Amathaon is basically the ultimate Genius, mostly in the sense of the word where it is a (male) fertility spirit that represents both virility and fertile imagination, thus creative power of all kinds. Magically creating new objects may fit in the sphere, but I think enhancing non magical items is not at all appropriate here and should stay in the Enchantment sphere.


Force in FfH is close to Law, but instead of being laws derived from external sources or oaths that are binding on only those who make them like Law is is represents ruled arrived at by mutual consent and then enforced. (I guess you could say that Law is Jus or Fas but Force is Lex, at least in the form Lex would take in a Republic/Democracy.) In the FfH universe the rules of realty are created from an agreement on what the rules "should be" in the "collective unconsciousness," so there isn't really much of a distinction between messing with the rules of physics and "diplomatically" bringing people to a new consensus. It would be extremely concerned with making things fair, but in the sense that they are mutually acceptable by all sides and not in the sense that they are just and equitable (that is the Law sphere again). It is a sphere of compromise and of uncompromisingly holding others to fulfill the duties to which they willingly agreed. It is the sphere of contracts, and of conforming to the norms of society. Dagda's character is most exemplified by the Compact, which allowed some very evil provisions in order to get other protections passes. It is a sphere of negotiation, give and take, pay to play, earmarks, etc. It protects us from things we would never agree to, but condemns us to whatever evils we considered tolerable.


Dimensional would involve teleportation and summoning, but is (imho) mostly about the connections between different things and people, especially the connections of unhealthy, obsessive relationships and intense desires. It is about binding society together and ripping it apart. It is the sphere of cliques and megalomania. The connections Ceridwen creates between worlds are representative of the ties that bind individuals together. It is a connection between a caster and the location he seek to teleport to that makes teleportation possible, and the connection between master and slave that lets a caster call forth demons and elementals to do their bidding, until the connection between the summon and its home plane grows stronger and pulls it back.

 

[Kael]

Creation is the dominion of radical inspiration, of something from nothing. Nature grows a tree from a seed, creation simply creates the tree. The weakness of Creation is in its inefficency. Both in the amount of power required to use it (magic is a bending of the natural laws, creation pushes them well past others) and often its lack of purpose. It is bounded by Nature and Life.

Force is the immutable order. That which can't be changed. It is the magic that powers a geas and forms a wall made of nothing, but simply cant be destroyed. The weakness of Force is that it must be maintained, these laws cannot simply be made and walked away from. A mage has to maintain concentration to enforce the dominion. Priests have an easier time of it since minor angels can maintain the commands for them. But Dagda is notoriously unwilling to make the strong stronger, he is a big fan of the underdogs. Force is bounded by Mind and Law.

Dimension is the dominion of unnatural connections. Of bending, of secrets, of calling. It is the dominion of magic. Erebus was intended to be mutable only to the power of the gods, but there are gaps within it. Hidden places with different laws than men can pull into. Calling fire, disappearing into shadows, these things are all possible because Ceridwen isnt obeying the precepts of her providence, isnt enforceing the barriers between worlds.

ps. if you read the line about force magic requiring concentration and thought about a spell that the caster would have to maintain to keep active you are a flavor -> function designer. That is bad game design.

pss. I should have just let MC answer. I just saw his responce after posting this and its scary how accurate he is (get out of my head!).

 

[Verdian]

MagisterCultuum
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kael's Head
Posts: 7,551

I love seeing how the magic system of Erebus is related to DnD. Completely off topic, but how did you let your wizards and clerics choose spells?

 

[Kael]

MagisterCultuum
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kael's Head
Posts: 7,551

I love seeing how the magic system of Erebus is related to DnD. Completely off topic, but how did you let your wizards and clerics choose spells?

It was a classless system, all character points. Players spent character points on whatever they wanted. Most of the time there was a major and minor skill. Minor skills were the ones that really mattered, but a minor skills rank was its rank plus the applicable major skill, and minor skills could never exceed the major skill.

For example, Sorcery was a major skill and all of the spell spheres were minor skills. A mage may have Sorcery 4, Fire 4, Enchantment 2 and Spirit 3 (for example). He could never have a skill in Fire, Enchantment, etc above his Sorcery skill.

So thats mages Fire rank would be 8 (in traditional D&D turns he would cast fire spells as an 8th level wizard, and have access to level 1 - 4 fire spells). But I had custom spell lists for each sphere and tons of spells that required multiple spheres (to require casters to spread out rather than just focus in one sphere). I attached a picture of the spirit spell list.

Priests were similar. Their major skill was Faith and they had a primary sphere that also gave them additional bonuses with each rank. For example Junil's primary sphere was Law, but with law 1 they got +1 damage per rank against demons and access to the Vigor spell. Most religions gave access to 3-5 secondary spheres that didn't get the bonuses. Some of the more military had less spell spheres (followers of those religions were expected to spend time training in more military skills).

So overall priests had a more restricted spell selection, but got nice bonuses in their primary sphere. Its a lot easier (cost wise) to worship a god and get some spells that way than try the mage path. But mages had a much wider spell selection, especially to start getting into those cross sphere spells.

 

[Verdian]

Intense. It sounds like you took the basic rules of DnD and plucked some concepts from "Mage: The Acension"'s skill and magic system. Were fighter, rogue, ect also major skills, which determined skill maximums and hit die? Assuming this was 3.5 (or 3.0), was any feat an option? I'd love to see a character sheet if you have any laying around, as that could probably answer most of the questions. I am a big fan of letting the players be as creative as possible, which is why your character creation system appeals to me.

Answer one question and a half-dozen more appear.

 

[Kael]

I dont have a character sheet. It was classless so there was no such thing as a "fighter", "thief" etc. But yes, you could spend characters points on fighting or thief skills.

Hit points were made up of dodge hit points and body hit points. Dodge was your energy/exhaustion. Body hit points was how much physical damage you would withstand.

You lost dodge hit points first, and once those were gone you started taking body damage. Dodge hit points werent a big deal because they healed back quickly. Also things like stat drain, poison or other touch attacks had to do body damage before they would effect you.

Some criticals would strike directly to body damage, as did surprise attacks. When you were out of body damage you were unconscious, regardless of if you had dodge hit points left.

You body hit points were a number based on your constitution * your ranks in body hit points (another thing you could buy with character points). Different races had maximums in how many body hit point ranks they could buy.

Your dodge hit points were a number based on your dexterity * your rank in dodge hit points.

This allowed us quite a few nice systems to play with. One of my favorite was the "first blood" dueling challenge. Basically it was until either opponent suffered body damage. Since dodge damage healed back relativly quickly it was a big deal for two people to fight like this.

 

[Skitters]

ps. if you read the line about force magic requiring concentration and thought about a spell that the caster would have to maintain to keep active you are a flavor -> function designer. That is bad game design.

Although it does seem to fit in with Inspiration-like spells where the caster has to remain in place...

 

[the_fish]

Thanks guys! I'll try and convert this info into game mechanics below - feel free to correct:

Creation is the dominion of radical inspiration, of something from nothing. Nature grows a tree from a seed, creation simply creates the tree. The weakness of Creation is in its inefficency. Both in the amount of power required to use it (magic is a bending of the natural laws, creation pushes them well past others) and often its lack of purpose. It is bounded by Nature and Life.

Creation is about Fertility, Birth, Creativity, etc. It is about the emergence of new things, not merely the growth and maturation exemplified by the Nature sphere. Amathaon is basically the ultimate Genius, mostly in the sense of the word where it is a (male) fertility spirit that represents both virility and fertile imagination, thus creative power of all kinds. Magically creating new objects may fit in the sphere, but I think enhancing non magical items is not at all appropriate here and should stay in the Enchantment sphere.

• Great People / Specialists
• Science
• Production (maybe)
• Resource creation

The vast amount of power required for powerful effects can be represented by big spells with delays or caster sacrifice. Interestingly, I think the Mind I spell "Inspiration" fits perfectly into Creation I. Maybe replace Mind I with a '+2 culture' building instead? (culture representing the proportion of people who believe in what you do - your influence - so seems more fitting)

Force is the immutable order. That which can't be changed. It is the magic that powers a geas and forms a wall made of nothing, but simply cant be destroyed. The weakness of Force is that it must be maintained, these laws cannot simply be made and walked away from. A mage has to maintain concentration to enforce the dominion. Priests have an easier time of it since minor angels can maintain the commands for them. But Dagda is notoriously unwilling to make the strong stronger, he is a big fan of the underdogs. Force is bounded by Mind and Law.

Force in FfH is close to Law, but instead of being laws derived from external sources or oaths that are binding on only those who make them like Law is is represents ruled arrived at by mutual consent and then enforced. (I guess you could say that Law is Jus or Fas but Force is Lex, at least in the form Lex would take in a Republic/Democracy.) In the FfH universe the rules of realty are created from an agreement on what the rules "should be" in the "collective unconsciousness," so there isn't really much of a distinction between messing with the rules of physics and "diplomatically" bringing people to a new consensus. It would be extremely concerned with making things fair, but in the sense that they are mutually acceptable by all sides and not in the sense that they are just and equitable (that is the Law sphere again). It is a sphere of compromise and of uncompromisingly holding others to fulfill the duties to which they willingly agreed. It is the sphere of contracts, and of conforming to the norms of society. Dagda's character is most exemplified by the Compact, which allowed some very evil provisions in order to get other protections passes. It is a sphere of negotiation, give and take, pay to play, earmarks, etc. It protects us from things we would never agree to, but condemns us to whatever evils we considered tolerable.

This one is trickier.

• Diplomacy
• Countermagic?
• Balancing combat odds (maybe)
• Defense, maintenance reduction (maybe)

+1 diplo mod for each Force mana seems good, as I'm not sure how to make spells affect diplomacy (unless we steal "Trust"). I'd say the focus here should be countermagic, which fits as the opposite of Dimensional as per Kaels description. Force II could be a passive 50% chance of countering adjacent enemy spells, for instance, and others could remove nerfs or kill summons.

Barring that, keeping things the same also applies to reducing maintenance costs and performing defensive magic (protection is the act of keeping things as they were). However, I don't think this interpretation and countermagic should coexist - the sphere should be one or the other.

Dimension is the dominion of unnatural connections. Of bending, of secrets, of calling. It is the dominion of magic. Erebus was intended to be mutable only to the power of the gods, but there are gaps within it. Hidden places with different laws than men can pull into. Calling fire, disappearing into shadows, these things are all possible because Ceridwen isnt obeying the precepts of her providence, isnt enforceing the barriers between worlds.

Dimensional would involve teleportation and summoning, but is (imho) mostly about the connections between different things and people, especially the connections of unhealthy, obsessive relationships and intense desires. It is about binding society together and ripping it apart. It is the sphere of cliques and megalomania. The connections Ceridwen creates between worlds are representative of the ties that bind individuals together. It is a connection between a caster and the location he seek to teleport to that makes teleportation possible, and the connection between master and slave that lets a caster call forth demons and elementals to do their bidding, until the connection between the summon and its home plane grows stronger and pulls it back.

Even trickier.

• Teleportation (obviously)
• Magic augmentation (unless is more Metamagic)
• Theft?

The thing here is that beyond the obvious teleportation, there aren't really many "connection" type mechanics already in the game. Units are separate from everything once built, as are summons. Resources and cities are linked via roads (trade network), but that doesn't directly involve people.

The only other thing I can think of is 'theft'. Stealing isn't really shadow, or mind. There's the literal aspect of using teleportation to physically steal objects, or feeding off diplomacy (connections with other civs). It'd make the sphere a suitable companion to Death and Entropy in making everyone else hate you ("stop stealing our stuff!"). Dim II being a 'gypsy wagon' type spell? (leech?)

One thing that's been cleared up is that 'banishing' (offensive teleportation) doesn't really belong here.

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How did I do?

 

[Skitters]

Even trickier.

• Teleportation (obviously)
• Magic augmentation (unless is more Metamagic)
• Theft?

The thing here is that beyond the obvious teleportation, there aren't really many "connection" type mechanics already in the game. Units are separate from everything once built, as are summons. Resources and cities are linked via roads (trade network), but that doesn't directly involve people.

The only other thing I can think of is 'theft'. Stealing isn't really shadow, or mind. There's the literal aspect of using teleportation to physically steal objects, or feeding off diplomacy (connections with other civs). It'd make the sphere a suitable companion to Death and Entropy in making everyone else hate you ("stop stealing our stuff!").

One thing that's been cleared up is that 'banishing' (offensive teleportation) doesn't really belong here.

----------------

How did I do?

One thing that strikes me is that Dimensional could be about map revelation/spying. Perhaps use for a spell that could see what a city is producing, or something akin to floating eye.

 

[the_fish]

One thing that strikes me is that Dimensional could be about map revelation/spying. Perhaps use for a spell that could see what a city is producing, or something akin to floating eye.

I thought about this, but it doesn't fit with the above descriptions. How can you have a connection with a place that you don't already know about?

I do agree that floating eye doesn't really fit Metamagic, though. It's more of a mind/overlords thing.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

edit: wrong thread, sorry

 

[Thimblyjoe]

out of curiosity. Do you have the entirety of your rule system written up, Kael? And if so is there a place I can download a pdf (or any file type I can view) of it? It would be much appreciated. I'm thinking about running a short campaign of some RPG depicting a descent into the hells of Erebus. I was going to use D&D 3.5, but if there's a system already in existence for an FfH rpg, that would be even better.

 

[Kael]

I do, but Im not sharing it. I have a massive set of rules we used for our games, but it isnt FfH. Its just the rules for those games. So you might find occasional clues and references to familiar things, but 80% of it won't match anything you are familiar with. Its just some random guys D&D house rules, not FfH.

I would highly recommend using whatever role playing system you are most familiar with to run a FfH game. Be it 3.5, one of the World of Darkness rule sets, or the Call of Chuthulu. FfH as a setting works in any of them.

 

[Thimblyjoe]

ok, I guess that makes sense. Any tips on making the caster classes fit the FfH magic system then? (Other than what you've said already)

 

[Kael]

Id break all the spells into spheres, then add a skill for each. Rather than learn or memorize spells (does anyone actually have casters memorize spells?) the caster has access to any in spheres he knows.

Kinda nice because they get a wider spell selection, but it also takes them some addition skill slots.

 

[Thimblyjoe]

hmm... I'd have to give them 1 or 2 extra skills per level to compensate, but it could work. Thanks. (p.s. I've never had a DM who didn't make casters memorize spells)

 

[Corlis]

While we're on the subject of spell spheres, why is Nantosuelta's sphere called both Faith and Enchantment? They seem kind of dissimilar to me...

 

[KillerClowns]

While we're on the subject of spell spheres, why is Nantosuelta's sphere called both Faith and Enchantment? They seem kind of dissimilar to me...

Wild guess, probably wrong, but an enchantment might be basically giving an inanimate object faith, or vice versa. So a priest would be a human enchanted with his god's sphere, by his faith, if that makes any sense.

 

[Tyrs]

What is Nantosuelta's precept? What's enchantments "deeper" meaning?