Creature(s) from Outer Space

[Zkribbler]

I'm bored. So I'm toying with the idea of how a creature which lives in outer space would function and what it would look like.

I assume in would have bio-chemical innards. IMHO, this would dictate a chitin shell, to protect against the vacuum environment. Most likely, it would be bubble shaped to minimize the pressure on the shell.

Do you agree? Do you have alternatives?

If this concept is agreeable, then I believe we should move onto what and how it eats.

 

[Ferocitus]

I'm bored. So I'm toying with the idea of how a creature which lives in outer space would function and what it would look like.

I assume in would have bio-chemical innards. IMHO, this would dictate a chitin shell, to protect against the vacuum environment. Most likely, it would be bubble shaped to minimize the pressure on the shell.

Do you agree? Do you have alternatives?

If this concept is agreeable, then I believe we should move onto what and how it eats.

Far, far too narrow, IMO.

A big part of Stanislaw Lem's scifi was that we wouldn't recognise
an alien intelligence even if we were looking right at it. (Solaris
was probably the prime example, although it was handled quite
poorly in the Hollywood movie.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Lem

How would you determine that, for example, the Red Spot on Jupiter was
a "higher intelligence", or not?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think the premise is "something that lives in outer space using familiar enough biology that we would still recognize it as a creature."

The problem of vacuum is highly over rated. The differential pressure across your tissue from interior of blood vessel to environment would only go up by a factor of about seven if you shift from sea level to vacuum. Obviously a problem for lung operation and such, but the basic chitinous shell should be more than adequate. Transparent and filled with some sort of chlorophyll laden fluid should do quite nicely.

 

[Bootstoots]

You mean in orbit by itself around a star? That can't happen: anything recognizable as life is going to require substantial chemical inputs, which it won't get in the interplanetary medium given how diffuse it is (single digit numbers of particles per cm^3; I think this is higher than any vacuum we've ever created on Earth). Can it be on an airless body instead? I still don't see it happening even in that case, but it would make a little more sense.

I think it would be more fun to speculate about somewhat more plausible things, like life on Titan or some other world with a reducing atmosphere and nonpolar solvents in place of water. The alternative biochemistry would be very interesting! Also, life in gas giant atmospheres, and more boring cases like life on Mars or even alternative biochemistries in an Earthlike world. I'm busy tonight but I'll throw in some speculations about those sorts of things soon.

 

[Kyriakos]

Chitinous shell?

How about Kephri/Keper, the ancient egyptian Scarab-god who brings the morning sun about? ^^

 

[Zkribbler]

You mean in orbit by itself around a star? That can't happen: anything recognizable as life is going to require substantial chemical inputs, which it won't get in the interplanetary medium given how diffuse it is (single digit numbers of particles per cm^3; .

What about in orbit around a moon like Enceladus. Its 102 geysers spew water vapor, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and organics into nearby space?

 

[Gigaz]

I wouldn't say it's entirely impossible but you'd probably have to design the creature because it would hardly evolve by itself. First of all you need a region which provides enough matter and energy. A ringed gas giant with many small moons might suffice. The creatures would need to be large and plated so that they do not evaporate material into space. They could produce their own magnetic field as radiation protection, but biological repair mechanisms might make more sense. Most of all they need to collect matter for growth, either from something like Saturns rings, or Enceladus' fountains, or by carefully grazing into something like Titan's atmosphere. Efficient propulsion would likely be extremely difficult. Even if they utilize ambient magnetic fields or radiation pressure, they'd have to be very patient and long-lived to move around. They would probably appear plant-like on first look but show planned behaviour on a month-years timescale.

 

[warpus]

The first question you have to answer is "How and where did this creature evolve?". I can't think of a scenario in which a creature evolves in outer space, but maybe I'm not thinking hard enough. I also can't think of a scenario in which a creature evolves space-capable organs on a planet, then migrates out into space. It could be a very harsh planet I suppose, without an atmosphere perhaps.. but could life even arise if you don't have an atomsphere? I suppose it's probably impossible to say either way, but the most feasible way for such a creature to exist seems to be option 3: it was genetically engineered by someone or other.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is far likelier than beings in space exist in different form than 3d material one/picked up by humans or similar beings.
After all, in such a different scope, space itself is different.

 

[warpus]

That sounds like science fiction to me and not at all like science

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I suppose it's probably impossible to say either way, but the most feasible way for such a creature to exist seems to be option 3: it was genetically engineered by someone or other.

Most likely by itself. Or more accurately by its ancestors. Our solution to having made our planet uninhabitable seems likely to involve creating a habitat elsewhere that recreates what we are currently bent on destroying, but a different application of technology leads to remaking ourselves to fit some other environment.

 

[warpus]

True, that's option 4, good thinking. I've read several sci-fi stories in which branches of humans evolve in different directions depending on the new conditions which those colonists found themselves.. as well as stories of humans who have genetically engineered humans capable of surviving in conditions regular humans couldn't.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So if we engineer a big shell full of material that can manage photosynthesis, and it contains a closed system of chemical stew that needs no additional material because it loses none and recycles all...it is basically a giant space plant. Reproduction is out, growth is out, and thought processes and such are also out...but it is a life form, yes?

We could carve "humans were here" in the shell and leave it in orbit for posterity.

 

[Ferocitus]

So if we engineer a big shell full of material that can manage photosynthesis, and it contains a closed system of chemical stew that needs no additional material because it loses none and recycles all...it is basically a giant space plant. Reproduction is out, growth is out, and thought processes and such are also out...but it is a life form, yes?

We could carve "humans were here" in the shell and leave it in orbit for posterity.

Small organisms, like viruses and bacteria, can be lifted high into
the upper atmosphere by winds and currents, and then blown away from
the Earth by the solar wind.

Bacteria can live and reproduce in very cold conditions, in the tiny
fissures of rock, and they can extract energy from chemical reactions,
and other means that do not require light or photosynthesis. The rate

The rate at which your hypothetical organisms grow and move should
be stated up front. An organism with a metabolic rate, for want of a
better term, that is many thousands of times slower than it would be on
Earth is not infeasible.

The closest real Earth creatures that could be contenders for surviving
in space, say inside large asteroids, or well below the surface of icy
planets, are tardigrades IMO. There might be others, but tardigrades have
been re-animated after being in hibernation in glacial ice for over
80 years, perhaps even longer.

If there's some form of liquid, water, methane, ammonia etc, then there
could be wondrous creatures there.

I think it's saying, "1upt has doomed the Earth franchise forever!!!1! Prepare for war!"

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Tardigrades would not survive anywhere else but Earth. Sure they could survive a trip in the solar system of at least decades in length but there is nowhere in the solar system other than Earth where they would be able to survive once landed. And realistic interplanetary trajectories are on the order of millions of years - and I'm quite confident they could not survive such a trip.

Even bacteria and virus particles would suffer a massive attrition rate when exposed to outer space for realistic time lengths. If nothing else, radiation will eventually shuffle enough atoms around in their RNA/DNA to make them dead or unable to replicate.

 

[Ferocitus]

Tardigrades would not survive anywhere else but Earth. Sure they could survive a trip in the solar system of at least decades in length but there is nowhere in the solar system other than Earth where they would be able to survive once landed. And realistic interplanetary trajectories are on the order of millions of years - and I'm quite confident they could not survive such a trip.

Even bacteria and virus particles would suffer a massive attrition rate when exposed to outer space for realistic time lengths. If nothing else, radiation will eventually shuffle enough atoms around in their RNA/DNA to make them dead or unable to replicate.

There's no question that they would not last long if subject to the
forces that destroy RNA/DNA. Interstellar distances and times are
completely out of the question.

I only included tardigrades, bacteria and viruses in the incredibly
fortunate circumstance they were inside something with enough water
and energy to survive for a long period. That's why I also mentioned the
"metabolic rate", i.e How long is a long time?

Maybe something will eventually crawl out of Craig Venter's labs one
day. Something with 6 (or sixish) genetic letters, or even with silicon
instead of carbon. It was recently shown that carbon-silicon bonds could
be viable, however, that's a long way from showing that living creatures
could be formed from them.

 

[warpus]

Even bacteria and virus particles would suffer a massive attrition rate when exposed to outer space for realistic time lengths. If nothing else, radiation will eventually shuffle enough atoms around in their RNA/DNA to make them dead or unable to replicate.

Maybe one of those random mutations could lead to some of those bacteria surviving and exploiting some aspect of the new environment. The "Life.. finds a way" argument

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Maybe one of those random mutations could lead to some of those bacteria surviving and exploiting some aspect of the new environment. The "Life.. finds a way" argument

Well sure, that's how evolution works. The chances of this working are going to be pretty low. Additionally, the more complex the organism the less likely this is going to work. I think for anything more complicated than a bacteria or virus particle (which isn't alive to begin with), there is basically no chance of the transfer working out. I have nothing to back this up than intuition and my knowledge of the space environment.

There's no question that they would not last long if subject to the
forces that destroy RNA/DNA. Interstellar distances and times are
completely out of the question.

I actually don't mean interstellar distances, I mean inter-solar distances (think Earth to Mars not Earth to Alpha Centauri). The time scale would still be millions of years in a very harsh environment. You would need something the size of a large (~on the order of kilometers) asteroid to break off the Earth to provide enough radiation protection for something inside it to survive millions/billions of years. Impacts that are energetic enough to break off large asteroid-sized chunks of the Earth and send them on a hyperbolic escape trajectory are going to be energetic enough to sterilize anything they break off through heating and shock in my estimation.

You don't need a full kilometer of rock to shield something but unless the ejecta was engineered by intelligence, there is very little chance it will have suitable geometry to protect life inside it from any angle. Radiation in our solar system is constant and only goes from pretty bad to hellish. Over the timescales involved, anything that doesn't have tens of meters of protection around it on all sides would be fried.

I only included tardigrades, bacteria and viruses in the incredibly
fortunate circumstance they were inside something with enough water
and energy to survive for a long period. That's why I also mentioned the
"metabolic rate", i.e How long is a long time?

I got you but also meant that even if a tardigrade survived a trip to Mars, it's going to die when it gets there. Pretty much if it goes anywhere but Earth it will not survive, notwithstanding miraculous DNA mutations that would allow it to survive off Earth.


I guess I'm saying biological transfer isn't impossible but it very nearly is. I can't wait to get to Mars to seek the answers to the question.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Far, far too narrow, IMO.

A big part of Stanislaw Lem's scifi was that we wouldn't recognise
an alien intelligence even if we were looking right at it. (Solaris
was probably the prime example, although it was handled quite
poorly in the Hollywood movie.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Lem

How would you determine that, for example, the Red Spot on Jupiter was
a "higher intelligence", or not?

Have you tried the good one?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(1972_film)

 

[warpus]

Well sure, that's how evolution works. The chances of this working are going to be pretty low. Additionally, the more complex the organism the less likely this is going to work. I think for anything more complicated than a bacteria or virus particle (which isn't alive to begin with), there is basically no chance of the transfer working out. I have nothing to back this up than intuition and my knowledge of the space environment.

I was watching a show on Panspermia a while ago now and they seemed to claim that a microbe could in theory remain frozen inside an asteroid or comet, protected from cosmic rays and radiation during its journey, then thawing out once it's reached a new solar system. This was all hypothetical mind you, but they seemed to think that it was possible. My "mutations -> awesome new microbe that can survive in a new environment" idea wouldn't come into play until the journey had already been made though, after the asteroid crashed down on some planet.. making it even less likely. But seemingly possible! Maybe not statistically possible, depending on how often this happens and how long such microbes could survive the super long time it takes to get from solar system to solar system. Yeah it sounds very "out there", but.. If it happened every once in a while, in so many solar systems, over billions of years, maybe a couple of them got through, and maybe it's a mechanism that spreads life around the universe. Of course we don't have any evidence of this, but..