Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations

[Zack]

Well how many Asian rappers and basketball players do you know compared to the number of black rappers and basketball players?

 

[Archbob]

Well how many Asian rappers and basketball players do you know compared to the number of black rappers and basketball players?

There's plenty of K-Pop and Chinese/Canto/Taiwanese music stars and yes, they have huge fans and followings but not that many kids seriously try pursue that career.

Its drilled into our heads at an early age that education is the most important think and parents strictly enforce it, even in single-parent families.

 

[Farm Boy]

:Success in life:

What a loaded little concept packed with so many definitions and so little understanding.

Not a jab at you Archbob, just... musing.

 

[Zack]

There's plenty of K-Pop and Chinese/Canto/Taiwanese music stars and yes, they have huge fans and followings but not that many kids seriously try pursue that career.

Its drilled into our heads at an early age that education is the most important think and parents strictly enforce it, even in single-parent families.

Okay, this is ridiculous. Let's look at some facts:

Asian American : $68,088
Pacific Islands American : $ 58,859
White American : $ 54,857 (includes White Hispanics)
Total Population : $ 51,914
Native American : $ 38,806
African American : $ 35,341

As myself and others have REPEATEDLY told you, this is a socioeconomic issue, NOT an ethnic one. Wealthier people tend to value education more, it's as simple as that. When you say Asian people value education and black people don't, you're misinterpreting correlation as causation. Asian-Americans aren't better-educated because of anything to do with their race, it's because they come from wealthier backgrounds. Imagine these two situations:

Situation A: You're a teenage Asian male from a middle class family. You have many Asian relatives and know many Asian-Americans in your community that are well-educated white-collar professionals, and you aspire to be the same.

Situation B: You're a black teenage male from a relatively impoverished, uneducated family in Compton. Who are your role models? Neil deGrasse Tyson, Barack Obama? Those guys come from educated families living in much nicer areas. How many scientists from Compton have you heard of? How many doctors and lawyers do you know that grew up in Compton? On the other hand, how many rappers and athletes do you know from Compton? Who do you look up to and aspire towards?

You're asking people coming from generations of poverty why they don't just shape up and decide to become doctors and lawyers. As if it's that <effing> simple.

 

[Archbob]

As myself and others have REPEATEDLY told you, this is a socioeconomic issue, NOT an ethnic one. Wealthier people tend to value education more, it's as simple as that. When you say Asian people value education and black people don't, you're misinterpreting correlation as causation. Asian-Americans aren't better-educated because of anything to do with their race, it's because they come from wealthier backgrounds.

Then stop calling it racism, because its not.

 

[luiz]

Okay, this is ridiculous. Let's look at some facts:


As myself and others have REPEATEDLY told you, this is a socioeconomic issue, NOT an ethnic one. Wealthier people tend to value education more, it's as simple as that. When you say Asian people value education and black people don't, you're misinterpreting correlation as causation. Asian-Americans aren't better-educated because of anything to do with their race, it's because they come from wealthier backgrounds. Imagine these two situations:

Situation A: You're a teenage Asian male from a middle class family. You have many Asian relatives and know many Asian-Americans in your community that are well-educated white-collar professionals, and you aspire to be the same.

Situation B: You're a black teenage male from a relatively impoverished, uneducated family in Compton. Who are your role models? Neil deGrasse Tyson, Barack Obama? Those guys come from educated families living in much nicer areas. How many scientists from Compton have you heard of? How many doctors and lawyers do you know that grew up in Compton? On the other hand, how many rappers and athletes do you know from Compton? Who do you look up to and aspire towards?

You're asking people coming from generations of poverty why they don't just shape up and decide to become doctors and lawyers. As if it's that <effing> simple.

Were the Asian immigrants that rich when they came to the US, though? I don't think so.

Clearly they gave a lot of value to education, culturally, which is why even though they came from poorer backgrounds and faced discrimination, they ended up outperforming whites. The same can be said about Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe who arrived in the US on the first half of the 20th Century.

The fact here is that the Asians valued education before becoming affluent, not the other way around.

 

[Zack]

Then stop calling it racism, because its not.

How do you think that income disparity arrived in the first place?

I was responding to your criticism of black culture being the reason, anyways. I might have not made that clear, but what I meant to say was that if black people have limited social mobility, it is not because there's something inferior about black people. However, they do still face discrimination because they're black.

Were the Asian immigrants that rich when they came to the US, though? I don't think so.

Clearly they gave a lot of value to education, culturally, which is why even though they came from poorer backgrounds and faced discrimination, they ended up outperforming whites. The same can be said about Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe who arrived in the US on the first half of the 20th Century.

The fact here is that the Asians valued education before becoming affluent, not the other way around.

They also weren't enslaved and forcibly brought to the US... it's unfair to look at African-Americans and say "Asian-Americans have done really well, why haven't you?"

 

[Archbob]

Were the Asian immigrants that rich when they came to the US, though? I don't think so.

That actually depends on which group. The recent ones from Far-East countries are fairly wealthy when they arrive(much like the new group of black people), people who immigrated earlier were pretty poor when they arrived.

 

[luiz]

They also weren't enslaved and forcibly brought to the US... it's unfair to look at African-Americans and say "Asian-Americans have done really well, why haven't you?"

I didn't say that. I said Asians culturally valued education before being affluent. It's not as simple as wealthy people valuing education, as you claimed, because those groups valued education since they were poor.

So there is a point in looking at cultural attitudes and success. Asians are not the only examples either.

That actually depends on which group. The recent ones from Far-East countries are fairly wealthy when they arrive(much like the new group of black people), people who immigrated earlier were pretty poor when they arrived.

Well yeah, the bulk of Far Eastern immigrants came really poor. College students do not represent the whole demographic. The ones who came in the 19th Century were often little more than slaves, really.

Additionally, as I said Asians are not the only example of poor immigrants who valued education and ended up doing very good. The Jews from Eastern Europe who migrated to the US were also for the most part very poor, and today their descendants are probably richer on average than even Asians.

 

[Zack]

I didn't say that. I said Asians culturally valued education before being affluent. It's not as simple as wealthy people valuing education, as you claimed, because those groups valued education since they were poor.

So there is a point in looking at cultural attitudes and success. Asians are not the only examples either.

You are comparing apples and oranges. African-Americans have a very different history in the US than Asian and Jewish immigrants.

 

[Farm Boy]

O.K. Read parts of this page then clicked to CNN and wound up giggling by the order and thought association of two of the leading stories.

China Executes Tycoon

Why Chinese Moms Want American Babies

 

[Zack]

You messed up the formatting of those links, fyi.

edit: nvm, you fixed it already

 

[Archbob]

Yes, they do, but slavery ended in 1865 with the 15th(I think) amendment. And the civil rights movement was in the 1960s, 50 years ago. Yes, I realize blacks tend to gather in groups by themselves, but most other races, including Asians do as well.

Its what we value as a race/ethniticity/whatever you want to call it that differs. As long as people use the argument that "blacks have a different history than others", things aren't going to be any better. Blaming whitey for the last 50 years hasn't gotten blacks anywhere. The real change has to come within the black community itself. Hoping others pull you up out of the ghetto has never worked for any race.

 

[luiz]

You are comparing apples and oranges. African-Americans have a very different history in the US than Asian and Jewish immigrants.

I am making no such comparison. I'm correcting a wrong claim you made (Ie, that Asians only value education because they're relatively wealthy. Fact is they valued education since they were relatively poor, which is precisely why they are now relatively wealthy). And Asians are not the only case of a relatively poor minority ascending due to valuing education.

I am not saying Black Americans are poor because they don't value education. I'm saying that cultural attitudes to education do play a role on how well each community ends up doing.

 

[Archbob]

O.K. Read parts of this page then clicked to CNN and wound up giggling by the order and thought association of two of the leading stories.


Why Chinese Moms Want American Babies

This one isn't that surprising. China and the USA are roughly the same size, one has 4 times the population and less arable land. Its obviously going to have more pollution/overcrowding issues.

I am not saying Black Americans are poor because they don't value education. I'm saying that cultural attitudes to education do play a role on how well each community ends up doing.

Unlike Luiz, I am saying education is the main thing. I've seen it in a particular more recent group of south-eastern Asian minority that pretty much all came over in the 1970s and 1980s after the Vietnam war as refugees(I came over in 1989 under the same political refugee clause after Tianmen square, but that's a different situation). About half of the young parents valued education and the other values more traditional things and didn't value education as much. After only a generation, the contrast between the two groups in quite stark with some coming out of poverty into prominence, but the ones that didn't value education still staying in Poverty.

 

[Zack]

Yes, they do, but slavery ended in 1865 with the 15th(I think) amendment. And the civil rights movement was in the 1960s, 50 years ago. Yes, I realize blacks tend to gather in groups by themselves, but most other races, including Asians do as well.

Its what we value as a race/ethniticity/whatever you want to call it that differs. As long as people use the argument that "blacks have a different history than others", things aren't going to be any better. Blaming whitey for the last 50 years hasn't gotten blacks anywhere. The real change has to come within the black community itself. Hoping others pull you up out of the ghetto has never worked for any race.

Okay, so let me get this straight. If I try to make the argument based on present financial standing, the response is that "but Asians are only so wealthy because of their history of valuing education." But if I then say that African-Americans have a history of being denied an education, the response is that their history doesn't matter.

I am making no such comparison. I'm correcting a wrong claim you made (Ie, that Asians only value education because they're relatively wealthy. Fact is they valued education since they were relatively poor, which is precisely why they are now relatively wealthy). And Asians are not the only case of a relatively poor minority ascending due to valuing education.

I am not saying Black Americans are poor because they don't value education. I'm saying that cultural attitudes to education do play a role on how well each community ends up doing.

I did not say that was the only reason they value education. I said wealthier people tend to value education more than poorer people. I was talking about the present day situation, where the fact is that an Asian-American will on average come from a much wealthier family than an African-American.

 

[warpus]

My family arrived to Canada dirt poor and we are now a healthy & contributing part of the middle class.

Anecdotal, but there you go. What helped us? We lived in a community that values hard work - and my parents refused to stay on welfare forever. Me and my sisters went to school, got degrees, and now make a good living. My parents continually improved their situation by trying everything and then some. It hasn't been easy, but it did take a lot of work.

I'm not saying every single poor family in America can emulate our success, and yeah, I know that America's safety net sucks compared to Canada's, but there's gotta be lessons that can be learned there.

 

[Farm Boy]

This one isn't that surprising. China and the USA are roughly the same size, one has 4 times the population and less arable land. Its obviously going to have more pollution/overcrowding issues.

I'm not saying this is evidence of anything. It was just amusing that the order of thoughts came up after reading the thread page.

Though, arable land? Seems kinda besides the point of population density and pollution. If arability was the filter human habitation runs through these days you would expect a hell of a lot less people in places like California.

 

[Archbob]

Okay, so let me get this straight. If I try to make the argument based on present financial standing, the response is that "but Asians are only so wealthy because of their history of valuing education." But if I then say that African-Americans have a history of being denied an education, the response is that their history doesn't matter.

Its been 150 years since slavery and 50 since the civil rights movement, there have been immigrant groups that have arrived poor in the years after your slavery and the years after your civil rights movement that were equally as disenfranchised. You've had the same opportunities as these groups. They've(as least some of them) have slowly risen up, you haven't in the same time period after the civil rights movement. You are no longer denied the educational opportunities. Since school do districting by where you live, everyone regardless of color is in the same district if they live there. That means poor Asian kids and poor white kids, go to the same school as poor black kids and yet they generally do better(I remember someone posted a study here in a previous thread). If you keep insisting on using history as a crutch, your not going to get anywhere.

Though, arable land? Seems kinda besides the point of population density and pollution. If arability was the filter human habitation runs through these days you would expect a hell of a lot less people in places like California.

Bigger breadbasket. California is still part of the same country so you can export from the midwest to feed California. Exporting and trading between countries is a bit more complex as each country tends to look after its own first. That and the fact that the agricultral tech gap between the two countries, especially in genetics may be wider than most people think.

 

[Zack]

Fifty years isn't that long ago. There are plenty of African-Americans alive that are over the age of 50 with kids and grandkids.

I will now quote a bunch of posts from earlier in this thread that already address your points.

Spoiler :

I don't believe its precisely discrimination keeping African Americans down, but rather a lack of opportunity in the ghetto. I mean, just the fact that they were born in a ghetto is one strike against the "old guard" African Americans. Then the lack of businesses there contributes to lack of opportunity which leads to African Americans in the ghetto joining gangs because those are the only options for money which continues the lack of businesses. i won't mention the police, because police- ghetto relations are a tricky business and I don't want to bad mouth cops, but I feel the police don't help the situation.

IDK, still looks like racism to me. One group experienced historic American racism, the other only modern American racism, and they have different outcomes. Immigrants are also to some extent self-selecting.

So bootstraps basically?

What about racism performed by institutions? Racism is not just something that comes from an easily identifiable group of cackling evil racists.

And for a guy who acknowledges that some groups have a lower than average income you seem to have a bit of a blindspot when it comes to considering how that might affect the formative years of the kids today.

It's impossible to separate race and class in America.

The Thing people don't seem to realize is that racism has evolved. It's subtler and less effective, but that doesn't mean it should not be combated.

I'm going to agree with you... But with some big caveats.


First on a personal level it's always the screw ups fault, but on a societal level there can be reason why certain races/classes/genders/whatever produce more screwups.

But your absolutely right, Africans are wildly more successful here than 'African'-Americans. This helps demonstrate that racism isn't the entire problem. That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, or doesn't hurt, because it does. But ending racism wouldn't be enough to fix things for black Americans at this point. A huge part of the problem is classiscm, and an even bigger part is that racism and classiscm stack really badly.
To make up numbers say racism makes life 5% harder and classiscm makes life 10% harder, instead of both combining to make life 15% harder its more like they multiply and life gets 50% harder. Obviously I invented the numbers, but does the general concept make sense? This is something I've only started to fully understand recently and that I think many people miss.

In America African immigrants tend to arrive with an upper-middle class value system, much like stereotypical Asian immigrants do. It serves them very well, but it isn't shared by poor inner city blacks born in America. There problems are very deep and I don't really know the solution, but yelling about boot straps won't do it. Even ending racism won't do it, though it would help.

The fact is past racism put them where they are and just taking away the racism hasn't/won't fix the communities. When an individual has a chance and blows it, well screw them you shouldn't blow your chances. But we can't extrapolate that to an entire community.