Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations

[Zack]

Are you saying that Dr King transformed the content of their character from respectable to dispicable ghetto-gangster?

Wait, you took that picture's message seriously? Be honest - have you ever talked to a black person?

 

[dutchfire]

Yeah this has been getting weirder and weirder for me. This forum talks about black people in a very other'd sense on a level that even women don't get here. At this point "some of my best friends are black" is starting to look like it counts for something :facepalm: Imagine being black and reading these threads. I wouldn't even bother. I'd probably just leave.

A couple months ago, one of us asked me if I was black in fiftychat a bit ago, asked it in a PM ostensibly so there'd be no room for offense. The quietness of the question made it go from being a reasonable but unexpected question to something that felt weird. Like being black was something to be hush about.

I try to offer a more reasonable voice in the discussion of race here but sometimes I can't help but feel like until we actually have black civvers in OT, I'm contributing to the alienation. I don't like any of it.

Textbook Dunning-Kruger?

 

[Archbob]

Maybe Dr King could anticipate the day when racism would be a social taboo and the racists could no longer talk openly about skin color but instead would judge people by the clothes they wear so they could call them thugs and dismiss them just as readily as they used to dismiss them as [deleted racial epithet].

That is not really a race thing. White kids who dress like such are called thugs are well. But if a cop sees a white kid dressed like that he doesn't treat them as badly. Any way you cut it, skin color is still the main determinant.

Wait, you took that picture's message seriously? Be honest - have you ever talked to a black person?

Yeah, I have.

I mentioned that because some black commentator actually mentioned that point that African Americans in poorer neighborhoods tend to be more gangsters now than back in the 50s. Not sure if that is true or not though.

 

[Senethro]

So Archbob, you think that the difference in performance by these two groups indicates racism has functionally ended in the US and that crab mentality is completely responsible for any underperformance.

Have I understood correctly?

 

[Archbob]

So Archbob, you think that the difference in performance by these two groups indicates racism has functionally ended in the US and that crab mentality is completely responsible for any underperformance.

Have I understood correctly?

I don't think its racism isn't completely gone obviously but I do think crab mentality and the culture they've built around themselves(including all this crappy new-age hip-hop) definately shoulders some responsibility. I've said in this thread before I'd say its about 50/50. Even if you look at the same socio-economic level, black kids tend to be poorly compared to white kids. I think that is primarily cultural.

I think its just as idiotic to say that they are completely victims of their circumstance and have no blame on to themselves. That is just as idiotic as to say that racism is gone completely.

 

[Zack]

(including all this crappy new-age hip-hop)

Wait, what year is it?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Are you saying that Dr King transformed the content of their character from respectable to dispicable ghetto-gangster?

Not exactly. It made them from the citizens of the 50s, who are all nice, say "good day" but don't question the "Man", if I could use that phrase, to freer citizens, with their opinions and all that. Y'know. All that business America claims to be built on?

 

[Archbob]

I'd honestly have to say they would do better these days if they didn't go against everything the "man" says. I mean you really don't have to try to break the system at every turn. The world isn't going to adjust itself for you, it doesn't adjust for anyone, your the one who has to adapt.

Right now they aren't questioning the "man" and making logical and smart decisions, they just go against whatever the "man" says regardless if its good or not.

 

[gay_Aleks]

That I do not deny. However, the change has occurred, and there's nothing really you can do to fix it.

 

[Hygro]

Textbook Dunning-Kruger?

Maybe... I guess if you look at my old posts here, especially when I was much younger, some were just a little bit racist and I was more confident making the proclamations about How It Works.

Wait, what year is it?

Hey everybody lets get on down
Bringing y'all to the underground
<funk riff>

 

[luiz]

It really is a pity that there aren't more (any?) black posters here to discuss issues such as these, but I can't agree with the traditional line, repeated every time the behavior of a black person is criticized:

"Well you're not black and you don't know what it's like to be black in America and can't possibly understand so just shut up and accept what you're being told by those who do".

There are so many problems with such line of thinking. First and foremost, "those who do" don't all share the same opinions (they are human beings after all, not members of some different species with a hive mentality). Additionally we, as humans, can still understand or at the very least try to understand situations that we did not experience. And, most shocking to some, we can indeed criticize some behaviors of people even though we did not experience all problems and obstacles they did. To use a rather hyperbolic example, it's not necessary to have lived in the chaos of Weimar Germany to legitimately criticize the choices and behaviors of many Germans of the time. This whole "you didn't walk you in my shoes so you can't judge me" thing has a certain merit, in a limited sense, but it can't be taken too far.

If the OP or whoever is misrepresenting something in the episode, by all means he should be corrected. But not told to shut up because he's not black.

 

[Hygro]

It really is a pity that there aren't more (any?) black posters here to discuss issues such as these, but I can't agree with the traditional line, repeated every time the behavior of a black person is criticized:

"Well you're not black and you don't know what it's like to be black in America and can't possibly understand so just shut up and accept what you're being told by those who do".

There are so many problems with such line of thinking. First and foremost, "those who do" don't all share the same opinions (they are human beings after all, not members of some different species with a hive mentality). Additionally we, as humans, can still understand or at the very least try to understand situations that we did not experience. And, most shocking to some, we can indeed criticize some behaviors of people even though we did not experience all problems and obstacles they did. To use a rather hyperbolic example, it's not necessary to have lived in the chaos of Weimar Germany to legitimately criticize the choices and behaviors of many Germans of the time. This whole "you didn't walk you in my shoes so you can't judge me" thing has a certain merit, in a limited sense, but it can't be taken too far.

If the OP or whoever is misrepresenting something in the episode, by all means he should be corrected. But not told to shut up because he's not black.

There's a big gray area between "you're not allowed to have an opinion" and the confidence with which many non-black people hold their opinions on what it means to be black. Maybe non-black people should hold their non-deferring beliefs with less certainty, and tread more lightly.

 

[Archbob]

There's a big gray area between "you're not allowed to have an opinion" and the confidence with which many non-black people hold their opinions on what it means to be black. Maybe non-black people should hold their non-deferring beliefs with less certainty, and tread more lightly.

The issue is that when black people voice the same concerns that we do, they're often referred to as "not really black" or "not black enough", whatever that means. Basically anytime a prominent black person says any little thing about black people taking responsibility for themselves, they are called "sellouts" or "uncle toms".

Dr. King said people needed to be judged by the content of their character . If you call respectable, successful black people "sellouts" and "uncle toms", what do you people are going to see as the content of your character?

 

[Hygro]

If you're going to repeatedly appeal to Dr. King how about you start looking to his broader works rather than the most famous line of his most famous speech?

Meanwhile you're ironically referring to two kids working to look attractive to young women as "ghetto-gangster" judging them on pre-scripted tropes based on their looks, but yet not looking at black people close enough to know what they as individuals actually look like (you stop at skin color you said), and not on character.

 

[Archbob]

You can't judge someone character just by looking at them. You actually have to spend a lot of time talking with them. I don't do that with most people I see on the street. Racists certainly don't do that, they judge by appearance. if I see a white of Asian kids wearing bagging pants with chains and tats all over their body, I'm going to think the same thing about them. How you carry yourself matter. But in spite of that, I can generally tell if their black, white, Asian, or Hispanic regardless of what their wearing.

The issue with black people as a while isn't on individuals, its that the mainstream culture that people see as ghettos and most famous black rappers,artists, etc aren't really helping that image. If all your songs are about bi*tches and ho-es and glorfying crime, thats what people are going to see you as. If you don't want that, tell your artists/culturalists to change that.

 

[CaptainF]

The issue with black people as a while isn't on individuals, its that the mainstream culture that people see as ghettos and most famous black rappers,artists, etc aren't really helping that image. If all your songs are about bi*tches and ho-es and glorfying crime, thats what people are going to see you as. If you don't want that, tell your artists/culturalists to change that.

Such garbage. I'm so sick of white racists blaming predominantly black/hispanic music for causing...well anything really.

Link

The link between rap lyrics and violence seems overrated. The claim that violent language causes violent behavior &#8220;is neither convincing nor conclusive
(United States Senate)&#8221;. Hip hop and rap are distinct forms of art like other types of music. The violent lyrics in the songs reflect the violence found in many
American cities, rather than create it. It is not only unfair but also naive to blame rap music for social violence (Violence in rap music).

When Stevie Wonder was asked about his thoughts on rap, he said:&#8221; I learn from rap&#8230;Listen hard, and you&#8217;ll hear the pain. Without feeling the pain yourself, you&#8217;ll never understand. And what we don&#8217;t understand, we can&#8217;t change, can&#8217;t heal. I hate it when the very folks who should be listening to rap are attacking it so hard they miss the point. The point is that children and the neighborhoods-the whole country&#8230; is drowning in violence&#8221; (Smitherman, 1997, in Carter, 2002).

So, hip-hop and rap music are rooted in violent, sexist and raunchy, profane themes; however, they should not be the only genres to be criticized or condemned. Violent movies and violence in the media have to be addressed as well.
Since art mirrors life, whatever movie we watch or music we listen to is only depicting this reality, it is not creating it. Although teens may be negatively affected by violence, violence exists everywhere, even in their homes, schools or work places. Rap music is not the only detrimental feature in their dysfunctional or imperfect world, and, should not be singled out as the only or the worst existing nightmare.

Another relevant point:

*It&#8217;s easy to blame simple minded rappers for promoting negative messages and images while multi billion dollar companies and shrewd businessmen who market these artists are free from criticism.
*It&#8217;s easy to blame someone like Chief Keef who becomes the obvious poster boy for mindless rap while Jimmy Iovine, the head of Interscope Records, keeps a low profile and avoids having to address his part in promoting &#8220;death through entertainment&#8221;.
*It&#8217;s easy to protest flavor of the month Trinidad James who raps about Molly, the industry&#8217;s latest fashionable drug, while Def Jam&#8217; president Joie Manda proclaims his new discovery as &#8220;the cutting edge of what&#8217;s happening in the culture today.&#8221;
*It&#8217;s easy to blame talentless top 40 rappers for dominating the airwaves of so called hip hop radio stations like L.A.&#8217;s Power 106 or New York&#8217;s Hot 97 while Rick Cummings, president of programming for Emmis Communications, which owns both stations, isn&#8217;t held accountable for his part in broadcasting filth to millions of listeners.

As we all know, white people have never produced any violent, misogynistic, raunchy or otherwise offensive songs, movies or books.

In the future, try not to talk in such absolute terms about topics that you are ignorant of without first doing some research.

 

[Hygro]

Archbob, are you at all aware that you keep defining racism and your own behavior as the same?

 

[Zack]

archbob, name five rap songs and/or five rappers

 

[Commodore]

*It&#8217;s easy to blame simple minded rappers for promoting negative messages and images while multi billion dollar companies and shrewd businessmen who market these artists are free from criticism.
*It&#8217;s easy to blame someone like Chief Keef who becomes the obvious poster boy for mindless rap while Jimmy Iovine, the head of Interscope Records, keeps a low profile and avoids having to address his part in promoting &#8220;death through entertainment&#8221;.
*It&#8217;s easy to protest flavor of the month Trinidad James who raps about Molly, the industry&#8217;s latest fashionable drug, while Def Jam&#8217; president Joie Manda proclaims his new discovery as &#8220;the cutting edge of what&#8217;s happening in the culture today.&#8221;
*It&#8217;s easy to blame talentless top 40 rappers for dominating the airwaves of so called hip hop radio stations like L.A.&#8217;s Power 106 or New York&#8217;s Hot 97 while Rick Cummings, president of programming for Emmis Communications, which owns both stations, isn&#8217;t held accountable for his part in broadcasting filth to millions of listeners

This is not a relevant point and it only serves as an attempt to make one of the biggest problems with black culture in the US still seem like the "white man's" fault.

As far as I'm concerned record executives are more or less free from blame because they only promote what the masses have indicated they want. I mean sure, they could take a moral stand and refuse to publish that kind of music, but if it's what the people want then their record companies wouldn't be around very long and someone would publish it eventually.

The rappers themselves on the other hand are 100% to blame for the quality and content of their music. I seriously doubt the record executives are holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to write lyrics about assaulting women and killing people who "dissed" them or how cool it is to be irresponsible by drinking and partying all the time. In fact, their lyrics before they got discovered are usually much more vulgar and violent and it is the record executives that get them to tone it down a bit.

 

[jackelgull]

This is not a relevant point and it only serves as an attempt to make one of the biggest problems with black culture in the US still seem like the "white man's" fault.

As far as I'm concerned record executives are more or less free from blame because they only promote what the masses have indicated they want. I mean sure, they could take a moral stand and refuse to publish that kind of music, but if it's what the people want then their record companies wouldn't be around very long and someone would publish it eventually.

The rappers themselves on the other hand are 100% to blame for the quality and content of their music. I seriously doubt the record executives are holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to write lyrics about assaulting women and killing people who "dissed" them or how cool it is to be irresponsible by drinking and partying all the time. In fact, their lyrics before they got discovered are usually much more vulgar and violent and it is the record executives that get them to tone it down a bit.

The thing is though, if rapper's lyrics are violent, then its because their lives were violent. Their songs reflect the ghettoes they come from. And you might criticize them for glorifying violence, but their audience is mainly urban blacks. These people's lives are violent. They have to romanticize the reality of their situation as a type of escape, because they have no other means. I mean, what opportunities are there to be found in the ghetto? I freely admit I'm no expert, but I have the feeling that there aren't lots of opportunity for employment there. In fact the only big 2 might just be drugs and prostitution. And if you happen to have honest employment, whose going to believe you? The cops probably won't. They are mighty suspicious of the ghetto, considering that alot of criminals come from there and they are more likely to search you and apply civil forfeiture. If you complain about rap's repetitiveness, then I can completely understand. All the talk about bling and women, or about being a drug lord do get repetitive. But hating the violence in it? That's missing the context from which rap comes from.