Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations

[Commodore]

The thing is though, if rapper's lyrics are violent, then its because their lives were violent. Their songs reflect the ghettoes they come from. And you might criticize them for glorifying violence, but their audience is mainly urban blacks. These people's lives are violent. They have to romanticize the reality of their situation as a type of escape, because they have no other means. I mean, what opportunities are there to be found in the ghetto? I freely admit I'm no expert, but I have the feeling that there aren't lots of opportunity for employment there. In fact the only big 2 might just be drugs and prostitution. And if you happen to have honest employment, whose going to believe you? The cops probably won't. They are mighty suspicious of the ghetto, considering that alot of criminals come from there and they are more likely to search you and apply civil forfeiture. If you complain about rap's repetitiveness, then I can completely understand. All the talk about bling and women, or about being a drug lord do get repetitive. But hating the violence in it? That's missing the context from which rap comes from.

I get that, but their situation won't get any better and they have absolutely zero chance of changing anyone's perception of their culture as long as they keep romanticizing the violence they experience. I have no problem with rapping about violence, I just have a problem with rap lyrics that portray violence as a positive.

 

[Zack]

This is not a relevant point and it only serves as an attempt to make one of the biggest problems with black culture in the US still seem like the "white man's" fault.

As far as I'm concerned record executives are more or less free from blame because they only promote what the masses have indicated they want. I mean sure, they could take a moral stand and refuse to publish that kind of music, but if it's what the people want then their record companies wouldn't be around very long and someone would publish it eventually.

The rappers themselves on the other hand are 100% to blame for the quality and content of their music. I seriously doubt the record executives are holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to write lyrics about assaulting women and killing people who "dissed" them or how cool it is to be irresponsible by drinking and partying all the time. In fact, their lyrics before they got discovered are usually much more vulgar and violent and it is the record executives that get them to tone it down a bit.

That's a caricature of hip-hop, especially considering there are PLENTY of rappers, especially nowadays, who don't glorify "assaulting women and killing people". I seriously question how familiar people like you and Archbob actually are with hip-hop. How many songs have you actually listened to and paid attention to the lyrics? And besides, Eminem (aka the most commercially successful rapper ever) is white, has tons of white fans, and frequently raps about those kind of behaviors, but somehow this is a problem always portrayed as being exclusive to black people.

Your argument about the record executives is nonsensical. It's okay for guys in corporate to just "give the masses what they want" but it's not okay for the musicians themselves to do the same? What kind of twisted logic is that?

In fact, their lyrics before they got discovered are usually much more vulgar and violent and it is the record executives that get them to tone it down a bit.

What are you basing this on?

how cool it is to be irresponsible by drinking and partying all the time

here's an obscure rap song (only 65 million views or so) about exactly the opposite


Link to video.

 

[jackelgull]

I was thinking of Kendrick Lamar the entire time while typing that post. Thank you, you just made my day.

And I wouldn't exactly call this "obscure". The song made it to billboard's top 100 in 2013. You're just looking at the non official video.

 

[Zack]

And I wouldn't exactly call this "obscure". The song made it to billboard's top 100 in 2013.

I know. Re-read what I said.

obscure rap song (only 65 million views or so)

(I was being sarcastic. My point was that some of the most popular rappers, such as Kanye or Kendrick, are very much NOT like what Commodore/Archbob are describing.)

 

[Commodore]

That's a caricature of hip-hop, especially considering there are PLENTY of rappers, especially nowadays, who don't glorify "assaulting women and killing people". I seriously question how familiar people like you and Archbob actually are with hip-hop. How many songs have you actually listened to and paid attention to the lyrics? And besides, Eminem (aka the most commercially successful rapper ever) is white, has tons of white fans, and frequently raps about those kind of behaviors, but somehow this is a problem always portrayed as being exclusive to black people.

You're right, there are plenty of rappers out there who are sending a positive message or trying to raise awareness about the situation of black people in the US and I applaud those rappers. However, their voice is still not the dominant voice in hip-hop and that is a problem to me.

As for Eminem: I am a huge critic of his. I usually say the same things about him that I say about black rappers who rap about similar things as him. I am not a fan of his at all and I do mark him as one of the biggest culprits behind the rise of negative hip-hop.

Your argument about the record executives is nonsensical. It's okay for guys in corporate to just "give the masses what they want" but it's not okay for the musicians themselves to do the same? What kind of twisted logic is that?

The record executive doesn't have creative control over the content whereas the artist does. If the artist makes a song and they focus test it and it tests well that's what they will market because it will make them the most money. A record executive is not interested in the artistic aspect of music, and rightfully so. They are business men whose job it is to maximize profits.

The artist on the other hand is supposed to be the one in creative control of their art. If they are just doing what their fans want them to do, then they are no longer in creative control and really can longer be considered artists at that point.

What are you basing this on?

Early demo tapes of some big time rappers that I've heard over the years. An old army buddy of mine was really into hip-hop and always managed to find obscure stuff like that.

here's an obscure rap song (only 65 million views or so) about exactly the opposite


Link to video.

I can honestly say I have missed that one, but that's from a lack of keeping up with modern music in general lately. This is the type of rapper I applaud and wish there were more of. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Archbob]

archbob, name five rap songs and/or five rappers

Kayne West, Little Wayne, 50 cent, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, list goes on and on.


And the immortal song from Little Wayne:

"To the windows, to the walls, to the sweat dripping from my balls"

Such artistic cultural pain.

The mainstream hip-hop culture is not really compatible with being successful in modern American society. And society is not going to adjust to them or anyone. Its them that are going to have to adjust if they want to go anywhere. You guys epitomize the problem. Anytime anyone, either black or white, tries to put the blame on the people themselves instead if the government, society, or something else, they get labeled as "racist" or "sellout", its just ridiculous. All you guys are really doing is hindering a people's progress by telling them its everyone else's fault except their own. As long as they believe that, they're not going to try to improve because they'll believe the nonsense that its everyone else in society that has to change.

 

[Zack]

Kayne West, Little Wayne, 50 cent, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, list goes on and on.

50, dre and snoop haven't been relevant in the hip-hop game in years. They're certainly not "new-age" lol, dre's last album came out fifteen years ago. I'm not really familiar with lil wayne's work, but Kanye West is about as far from gangsta rap as you can get.

Everything I Am (explicit language)

I know that people wouldn't usually rap this
But I got the facts to back this
Just last year, Chicago had over 600 caskets
Man, killing's some wack <crap>
Oh, I forgot, 'cept for when <african-americans> is rapping

Jesus Walks (explicit language)

So here go my single dog, radio needs this
They say you can rap about anything except for Jesus
That means guns, sex, lies, videotape
But if I talk about God my record won't get played, huh?

Hell, there's a poll on a fan website (that's admittedly a cesspool, but still) where almost 75% of the 251 respondents thought Kanye "killed" gangsta rap.

And the immortal song from Little Wayne:

"To the windows, to the walls, to the sweat dripping from my balls"

Such artistic cultural pain.

Not Lil Wayne. And it's a song about seeing a hottie in a club, not exactly promoting gang violence or reinforcing a system of poverty.

As for your last line there, two can play that game:

Spoiler :

The mainstream hip-hop culture is not really compatible with being successful in modern American society. And society is not going to adjust to them or anyone. Its them that are going to have to adjust if they want to go anywhere. You guys epitomize the problem. Anytime anyone, either black or white, tries to put the blame on the people themselves instead if the government, society, or something else, they get labeled as "racist" or "sellout", its just ridiculous. All you guys are really doing is hindering a people's progress by telling them its everyone else's fault except their own. As long as they believe that, they're not going to try to improve because they'll believe the nonsense that its everyone else in society that has to change.

You have thoroughly demonstrated that you know next to nothing about "mainstream hip-hop culture" past the 90s. You're talking out of your ass.

 

[gay_Aleks]

You know, for some reason, people think that there must be some kind of artistic integrity in music.

That's dead-bloody-damned wrong.

I think it's rather obvious, that music is first made to enjoy. It's primary goal is not to deliver some kind of profound message, or to criticise someone/thing. Believing that music should have an inherent artistic integrity (or, at least, the message they think music should hold) is well, plainly said, very, very dumb.

 

[Commodore]

You know, for some reason, people think that there must be some kind of artistic integrity in music.

That's dead-bloody-damned wrong.

I think it's rather obvious, that music is first made to enjoy. It's primary goal is not to deliver some kind of profound message, or to criticise someone/thing. Believing that music should have an inherent artistic integrity (or, at least, the message they think music should hold) is well, plainly said, very, very dumb.

Okay, I can get on board with that with the stipulation then that musicians should no longer be considered artists.

Art without artistic integrity is not art. It is merely just another commodity or product to be bought, sold, and consumed.

 

[caketastydelish]

I don't think its class warfare, both Barkley and Smith are very well off. They are just seeinga very talented young man waste his talent by repeatedly getting fined and suspended. He could have 4-5 times more than he has if he had just stayed off the weed after multiple warnings and it may cost him tens of millions of dollars in the future if he refuses to stay off the weed and admit his own problems.

The greater issue is that black sports stars are often role models to kids in their community, so if Josh Gordon does drugs and smokes weed, then those that look up to him will think its fine as well. Unfortunately for those people, they don't have the wide receiving talents of Josh Gordon.

Whites actually smoke more weed on a per-capita basis than blacks. There are tons of white celebrities that also smoke weed. I'm not seeing the big deal here?

edit: lots of white rock and rollers and even "country" white people also sing about drugs and alcohol and sex. Again, I'm not seeing the big deal just because black artists sing about the same things.

 

[Hygro]

"To the windows, to the walls, to the sweat dripping from my balls"

Such artistic cultural pain.

Not only not Lil' Wayne but not even the same genre of music that Lil' Wayne performs.

 

[nc-1701]

I'll jump on the train laughing about the Lil Jon+Ying-Yang Twins vs Lil Wayne mixup

But more generally I find the criticisms of rap and hip-hop rather confusing and empty. Sure lots of really good rap is about violence, so are most good video games, because violence is pretty cool. Lots of good rap is about sex, in fact most of all music is about sex (at least implicitly). I hate being one to cry racism, since I've had people try to pull that card on me, but that's what it feels like. Why are you focusing so hard on rap and hip-hop which btw is fully mainstream. I'm a white homeschooled kid with a degree in math...and I've been listening to Eminem and 50 Cent since I was 13.
Rap is a rich and diverse genre with very many good acts, obviously not everything is top quality but a lot of it higher quality than in other genres. The criticisms are crappy tropes with no real basis beyond prejudice. Obviously everyone is free to not like the sound, but that's not the criticism I see, certainly not in this thread.

In general I'm very uncomfortable with statements like Downtown's saying only black people should be allowed to discuss race etc. But then I read this thread and it's hard to argue with, because despite being deeply wrong, what I see here is a lot worse.

 

[Archbob]

The issue is that stuff is embedded nearly as firmly into white, Asian, etc culture. We don't worship rappers and sports heroes as our role models and those are the primary role models in the Black Community. Many prominent black people who have made it out of the ghetto say the same thing and as soon as they do they're called "coons" or become "not black enough" by the people still in the ghetto although they grew up in the same conditions.

The civil rights movement was a great thing and won people of color many rights that they should have had in the first place but the prevailing message after that of "blame whitey for everything" and "its not our fault, its everyone else's" has been the predominant thinking since the late 1960s. That's 50 years and that message has gotten black people nowhere and it will continue to get them nowhere.

What I find most infuriating is what I said above that when successful black people who actually made it out of the ghetto tell black society that they have to change, they get labeled "sellouts" or "coons", that's just ridiculous. Most of the time, the people railing against them can't actually refute their points, but resort to personal attacks.

 

[Zack]

Listen to this song (explicit language). It's a good portrayal of why a black person living in the ghetto might see "rappers and sports heroes as [their] role models" - they're the most visible examples of a person in their situation breaking out of poverty.

The only way out the ghetto, you know the stereotype
Shooting hoops or live on the stereo like top 40

 

[Traitorfish]

The issue is that stuff is embedded nearly as firmly into white, Asian, etc culture. We don't worship rappers and sports heroes as our role models and those are the primary role models in the Black Community.

Working class white and Asian people in the UK very much regard musicians and sportsmen as role models. I can't imagine the United States is really all that different.

Americans often seem to be confuse "black" with "poor" and "white" with "middle class", and I think that's what's happening here.

 

[luiz]

There's a big gray area between "you're not allowed to have an opinion" and the confidence with which many non-black people hold their opinions on what it means to be black. Maybe non-black people should hold their non-deferring beliefs with less certainty, and tread more lightly.

I agree. My point of disagreement is that we cannot properly criticize some black individuals because we don't fully understand their experience. Truth is nobody understand each other's experiences in this world fully anyway.

 

[Farm Boy]

I can honestly say I have missed that one, but that's from a lack of keeping up with modern music in general lately. This is the type of rapper I applaud and wish there were more of. Thanks for sharing.

Easy to do, I don't keep up with a ton of new music either, but I can attest this particular song is getting the piss played out of it on one of the stations I listen to. Actually, I listen to two stations regularly, NPR and the aforementioned music station for when NPR is being boring.

Americans often seem to be confuse "black" with "poor" and "white" with "middle class", and I think that's what's happening here.

It's a hazard of using racial terms and language to primarily describe cultural and socioeconomic realities instead of ethnic decent. Add in the confusion of mutt-races and the fact that people do use physical appearance in first glancing cultural and socioeconomic realities?

 

[Archbob]

Working class white and Asian people in the UK very regard musicians and sportsmen as role models. I can't imagine the United States is really all that difference.

Americans often seem to be confuse "black" with "poor" and "white" with "middle class", and I think that's what's happening here.

Being Asian, I can't say many of us regard manny paqiao or Jeremy Lin as role models. We're fans sure but they're not really what we aspire to be. Most Asians want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, or hedge fund managers. Stuff that is actially achievable without being supremely genetically gifted.

I don't assume a black person is poor automatically. It's when/if they start that ghetto trash talk that I assume they're poor. Starting out every sentence with " you know what I'm saying". No, I don't know what you're saying cause you haven't said anything yet. I know enough wealthy black people that are able to articulate themselves well to not automatically assume just by looking at them.

 

[Zack]

Being Asian, I can't say many of us regard manny paqiao or Jeremy Lin as role models. We're fans sure but they're not really what we aspire to be. Most Asians want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, or hedge fund managers. Stuff that is actially achievable without being supremely genetically gifted.

This is irrelevant to Traitorfish's point. Are you working class? How many working-class Asians do you know?

Also, look how many votes Jeremy Lin got for the NBA All-Star game. An average point guard who hasn't been able to stay in the starting lineup the last few years got over 200 thousand votes, more than double what Mike Conley (a much better player at the same position, but is black instead of Asian) received? Go look at those two player's stats, then tell me that "Asian people don't regard Jeremy Lin as a role model" lol.

 

[Archbob]

This is irrelevant to Traitorfish's point. Are you working class? How many working-class Asians do you know?

Also, look how many votes Jeremy Lin got for the NBA All-Star game. An average point guard who hasn't been able to stay in the starting lineup the last few years got over 200 thousand votes, more than double what Mike Conley (a much better player at the same position, but is black instead of Asian) received? Go look at those two player's stats, then tell me that "Asian people don't regard Jeremy Lin as a role model" lol.

Being a fan and seeing someone as a role model are two different things. I voted for Jeremy Lin in the All-Star game but I don't have any aspirations to be like him. I've hardly met any Asian guys who realistically thought they had a shot of being big-time in the MBA.

And even in working-class(not really sure how you define working class) neighborhoods like Chinatowns and such, Kids and parents value education more than Basketball or Rap skills. We understand education, not sports and rap skills are the key to success in life.