Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations
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Timsup2nothin
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My vacuum is full of dog hair, mostly.
I have noticed you making this point repeatedly, and I would like to say that it is an excellent and valid point, that I was not ignoring at all. As I said before. there was so much to respond to on this thread, and I didn't want to to "Wall-of-text" you guys which I often tend to do...
On this point, I am reminded of the theories/philosophies/purposes behind Criminal Law where explain need for Criminal Law (1. Deterrence 2. Retribution 3. Reformation 4. Isolation 5. Prevention). I am not going to go into each as that is not the purpose of this discussion, but I will say that Deterrence is the most popular/well know/"common sense" one. The Deterrence principle essentially states that the purpose of Criminal Law is to make the negative consequences of crime such that people will be discouraged from committing crimes.
The reason I mention this is because most people agree with this, it seems so obvious, which is why deterrence is the most popular. However, one of the many holes in deterrence is that you must know the penalty to be deterred by it, and few people know the penalties (or at least the severity of them). Also, you must believe that you will actually face the penalty to be deterred by it. In other words, deterrence doesn't work unless people think they will be caught, which criminals almost never do. So in short, deterrence at least from a Criminal Law standpoint doesn't really work to influence behavior. So why does deterrence seem so sound and so common sense?
Well it sounds good because it works, but only (or least primarily) at a community level, which finally gets back to warpus' point. What deters people from committing crimes and basically acting like jacka$$es is community pressure. If you are in a family or neighborhood or community where selling drugs for example is unacceptable... people will report you, shun you, criticize you, you are far less likely to do it. And that goes for everything from getting poor grades to dyeing your hair green to breaking windows, to getting girls pregnant and dumping them. What is against the law is less relevant than what is against your community norms.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
@FarmBoy: We talked about it, but the only thing I can see that's in common with what you quoted is the colour of the skin of some of the people involved. That made me raise one of my eyebrows.
@Sommerswerd: If I'm coming across as a guy who's trying to ram his point down everyone's throats, forgive me. It's been an interesting last couple days and I'm still feeling sort of medicated. I think. It's been a strange day overall. It's interesting to hear your point of view though.
@Sommerswerd: If I'm coming across as a guy who's trying to ram his point down everyone's throats, forgive me. It's been an interesting last couple days and I'm still feeling sort of medicated. I think. It's been a strange day overall. It's interesting to hear your point of view though.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Oh, no, gross, how old are you?
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Great, you quoted two words probably at the end of a sentence without the context. I don't even know what your trying to get at.
Farm Boy
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Work ethic stemming from the community the employees come from, skin color largely besides the point other than there is some correlation. There's not nearly enough work ethic and "big grins" while serving fries and remaking sandwiches without the maggot-sliced onions coming out of some communities to do a good job of moving those communities forward in the socioeconomic ladders.
warpus
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I didn't even say anything about work ethic though. This post doesn't really make any sense to me.
Timsup2nothin
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Beginning or end of a sentence, it is basically a lumping together of all the people identifiable by skin color into a homogenous group...which you were at the time summarily dismissing for 'their' behavior. [this is the internet, and the context is readily available and easy to find]
At a guess, that's what he was getting at.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
That people who say "the blacks" like that's been an acceptable way to describe people since the 1970s aren't in much of a position to pontificate on race relations.
I mean, you're arguing almost entirely from stereotype as it is, but when you throw stuff like this into the mix you're at serious risk of falling into "old racist grandpa" territory.
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Well, we are talking about an ethnicity or a group of people at large. The point is, it hasn't worked out for the majority of them and the race as a whole is no better off than it was 50 years ago. Blaming white people for ills isn't working obviously. I don't know why people like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson still get so much attention.
Timsup2nothin
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Archbob
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I don't really see how that is an example, I didn't mention anything about individual black people. Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson aren't really great examples that make your point.
I read your points #1 and 2#. But you didn't answer my questions. Is Blacks' failure more the result of:
A. societal/environmental bias outside of their control or;
B. Personal culture/values/conduct
C. Equal parts of both?
And if it is C, then please give me the same analysis of other races/ethnicities (or just Asians if you prefer).
The article you linked contradicts the point you are trying to make. Two statements I noticed - "Officials at the Project on Fair Representation say they are looking for students at other schools to come forward to provide evidence for future suits" and "Mr. Blum said that his organization is currently hoping to interview more applicants who were rejected from the University of ..." So this is a lawsuit by a bunch of rejected students trying to sue the school that rejected them alleging racial bias. The attorney/representative states outright that he is hoping to recruit more disgruntled rejects to join in his attacks against the schools that rejected them.
So I have two thoughts on this:
1. This article refers to a lawsuit. People file lawsuits all the time over all kinds of BS. As you can imagine, I have a lot of anecdotal experience with this I could share... The fact that they are suing, alleging quotas proves nothing. All I see is disgruntled rejected applicants alleging racial bias.
2. It is ironic that you are citing this article, because this is exactly the kind of conduct that you are arguing Blacks need to stop engaging in, right? These students are getting a result they don't like in life and then alleging it is the fault of racist institutional bias against them instead of taking personal responsibility for their own rejections, right? Or is this different somehow?
Hmmm... I don't think you read my post
That's cool, it was a little long
. In any case if you read the last paragraph, you will see that I agree with you 100%. I don't think you were ramming anything. Your point is valid and I just wanted to acknowledge/cosign it.
warpus
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I read it, I'm just in a bit of a rush, being at work and all. 
Timsup2nothin
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This is correct, they are not in any way examples that make my point.
Farm Boy
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I read it, I'm just in a bit of a rush, being at work and all.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Farm Boy: You make it sound like I'm implying that African American communities don't value hard work though. That is not at all what I was trying to get at in the couple posts I've made about the subject in this thread. A community that values personal growth of constituent members is only a part of what makes a community a good one for such a thing. The community has to support you in many ways - work ethic is on you - the individual. The community can either support it or discourage it - and a strong community will often do the previous, and not the latter.
Maybe I should go ahead and say it: America lacks strong communities. There are some, but they are far and wide between. The focus is on the individual - and not on the community - and that is a large problem leading to many other ones.
Maybe I should go ahead and say it: America lacks strong communities. There are some, but they are far and wide between. The focus is on the individual - and not on the community - and that is a large problem leading to many other ones.
Timsup2nothin
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Do you think this is unique to America? Capitalism absolutely devalues community relative to the individual. So does democracy. Individual rights. Private property. Privacy in general. Pretty much every concept of modern society. Do you think America is more impacted by that than anywhere else?
We might well be, in my opinion, but I'm wondering if you were implying something closer to 'uniquely impacted' rather than 'more impacted'.
