Croatia votes on EU Membership

[Ayn Rand]

Sometimes I think it would be easier if you listed all the people who aren't out to get you.

Hey, I didn't say I blamed them! The free ride worked well for the Irish didn't it? The only thing going through Croatia's head is "Gosh, hope we didn't miss the boat"

 

[bhsup]

And massive aid in the form of the Marshall Plan

Which they have paid back, with interest, in full. The only nation to do so, I believe. It wasn't aid, it was a loan.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

It has to do with the fact that this economic success was not just on the back of the hardships he described, but precisely because of them. Germany lost big time in the past 100 years, and these losses forced them to wise up, leading to their the success since '45. You can't praise their success without taking into account the very dire context it was achieved in.

While I do give some credence to this point, how does this explain the huge economic giant that Germany became between 1871 to 1918, of even earlier with the North German Confederation? While yes Germany's strong economy and D-Mark were sources of great post WWII national pride, it doesn't marginalize from the fact that she has long been blessed with, to rip from Ron Paul, a good economic tradition and "sound money" for her entire history. This is the root of French jealously as well as the root from all the smaller EU counties are feeding off of.

 

[choxorn]

Ok even if I was on the snobbish side, this is an online forum, everything everybody says is part troll, part snarky, and part legitimate.

This is a complete fabrication. I'll have you know that my statements are entirely snarky.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because as well as the industrial apparatus, Germany's economic success was very much driven by political forces: its sound post-war fiscal policies

Public German debt, in billion Euros
Red: Federal, state and local | Blue: States and local | White: Federal

For comparison national debt in relation to gross domestic product. I marked those red with are higher than Germany.

Spoiler :

Belgien 96,8%
Bulgarien 16,2%
Tschechien 38,5%
Dänemark 43,6%
Deutschland 83,2%
Estland 6,6%
Irland 96,2%
Griechenland 142,8%
Spanien 60,1%
Frankreich 81,7%
Italien 119,0%
Zypern 60,8%
Lettland 44,7%
Litauen 38,2%
Luxemburg 18,4%
Ungarn 80,2%
Malta 68,0%
Niederlande 62,7%
Österreich 72,3%
Polen 55,0%
Portugal 93,0%
Rumänien 30,8%
Slowenien 38,0%
Slowakei 41,0%
Finnland 48,4%
Schweden 39,8%
Großbritannien 80,0%

also its position within the Common Market for example

Please tell me. How was destroying German factories and infrastructure and robbing German patents necessary to gain its "Common Market" and how can it be argued to outweigh said losses?

 

[Leoreth]

You cheated a little, Belgium also has higher national debt than Germany.

 

[kronic]

I don't think these are the latest figures. Based on the OECD data (see latest Economic Outlook), at least France and the UK are doing worse than we now. The general point still stands though. In economic terms, Germany hardly stands out in anything. It is neither exceptionally rich (rather just about Western average) nor is the government's debt burden low. If you add the private sector liabilities, Germany's position is better than that of most other Western countries but indebtedness still stands at around 250 % of GDP.

But since we were talking about having the last laugh, I can't help but remind everyone that the Euro endgame has only started. It'll play out in one of two ways: either the Eurozone falls apart or Germany and some other Northern countries assume the debt of the Euro-South. The first will cause a heavy recession that will take at least 5 years to overcome (but the return of currency flexibility may be beneficial for all in the long run), the second will cause Germany to lose all of its gains and more in transfers to the Euro-South. I don't consider either of these options as having the last laugh.

 

[kochman]

Which they have paid back, with interest, in full. The only nation to do so, I believe. It wasn't aid, it was a loan.

True, but it was critical help, which is what aid is... I could have worded it better, because I made it seem like it was a gift.

 

[Leoreth]

It'll play out in one of two ways: either the Eurozone falls apart or Germany and some other Northern countries assume the debt of the Euro-South. The first will cause a heavy recession that will take at least 5 years to overcome (but the return of currency flexibility may be beneficial for all in the long run), the second will cause Germany to lose all of its gains and more in transfers to the Euro-South. I don't consider either of these options as having the last laugh.

Only the Sith deal in extremes! There is a sliding scale of solutions between this supposed dichotomy.

True, but it was critical help, which is what aid is... I could have worded it better, because I made it seem like it was a gift.

A loan can be aid as well, after all. Especially within these circumstances, under these conditions.