CTR1 -- Jump Without Looking (the Deity Virgin Sacrifice)

Ok, Earp is up, and I'm on deck ...

however, I am going to be without access until Thursday ... if Earp finishes quickly and m-b is available, feel free to skip, otherwise I'll play Thursday night
 
Originally posted by mad-bax
Re-new Ivory for 25gpt with Persia. Any attempt to renegotiate this deal would have led to no deal as we will never again be able to trade lux or resource for gpt.

Are you sure about this statement? My understanding of tarnished reps is different. I think we can still make gpt deals if we are trading for something that is also per turn(such as luxuries or resources). I think we can no longer make gpt deals that the AI considers loans. For example we can not make gpt deals for techs.
 
Earp: I wouldn't bet my life on it but I am pretty sure yes. We will not be able to make any deals that we can break. So we won't be able to buy techs for gpt, luxes for gpt or sell luxes at all.
Since you are in another SG with Bamspeedy why don't you ask him. He'll know for sure.

I am pretty sure that we screwed up when we went to war with the Iroquois. The English had no harbours and our lux deal with them was through the Iroquois harbours. The war with the Iroquois broke that trade route. Therefore we broke our supply of lux to the english. This means we can offer nothing per turn ever again.

The indians might be an exception, I'm not sure.
 
OK - so reviewing our Iroquais war.

Mad - did you note Juventus's comments ? We committed an in-advertent ROP-Rape, it would seem, because we still had 2 rounds on a ROP deal when we declared war.

Are we better or worse off for having done this ? On the whole, probably worse off, I think (and yes, I know, I was the one who declared that war .... so mea culpa !!). I say that because while we have a nice land-base on Englands continent for a future war there, unless we go for conquest/domination, we are probably going to feel the effect of the tarnished rep heavily in tech trading, and also it probably makes a DIPLO win nigh on impossible ?

Comments, thoughts ....

On a lighter note, I think we should get ToE, but we must work VERY smartly to ensure we maximize our pre-build to ensure hoover's.... it's the only way we can reel back some of the enormous DEITY production advantage the AI gets.

more thoughts ???

CiaO
 
Originally posted by mad-bax
I am pretty sure that we screwed up when we went to war with the Iroquois. The English had no harbours and our lux deal with them was through the Iroquois harbours. The war with the Iroquois broke that trade route. Therefore we broke our supply of lux to the english. This means we can offer nothing per turn ever again.

This may be true. Weren't the Iroquois and English fighting before we joined the war? Could the English use those harbors before we declared war on the Iroquois?

Someone else pointed out that we broke a RoP deal we had with the Iroquois when we declared war on them.
 
Have we decided to use ToE to get Atomic Theory and Electronics? I usually do not have much of a problem getting Hoovers when I use this strategy on Emperor.

As I understand it, our pre-build cities are Dark Blue, Kyoto, Osaka, and Dark choco. Do we have four items available for pre-builds?
 
Earp - our pre-build cities are: Dark Blue (already pre-building for ToE), and then the next best is Osaka. It would have been Kyoto, but there isn't anything I could find to pre-build there, because it is the captial, so it has the palace already.

I woul concentrate on pumping the productivity of those cities - even to building coal plants to improve it if there is time. If we get hoover's, we will replace those coal plant's anyway.

About geting hoover's ... I think we should get it, as long as we don't trade away the gained tech's too quickly. Don't under-estimate the speed of the DEITY prod, even w/o pre-builds!! I fear it ...

Hopefully, we should be able to leverage quite a bit of tech from Atomic theorey - I have found it a very profitable tech in the past (eg GOTM 21!!!), but the trick is making sure we are going to get hoover's, and yet trading it while no-one else has it. It'll be difficult, I think, and will require very carefull review of tech tree, and tech costs/tradability, every round. I have found that,as a AI gets close to a tech, they will offer less for it. Using that, if we get ToE, I would recommend we review what we can trade every round, to try and get a best guess as to when someone is close.
 
Originally posted by Earp


This may be true. Weren't the Iroquois and English fighting before we joined the war? Could the English use those harbors before we declared war on the Iroquois?

Someone else pointed out that we broke a RoP deal we had with the Iroquois when we declared war on them.

England were fighting before we joined ... 1 round I think.

As I recall, the sequence of events was :

turn 1

trade with england

IBT : england declare war on IRO (trade broken)

turn2
trade with Persia

move troops

IBT perisa decalre war on IRO

turn3

GEt cash from Persia to war with IRO
decalre war ((ROP rape due to 2 turns left on ROP agreement - UNINTENTIONAL))

Move troops and capture a city
turn 4

capture capital and another city I think

turn 5

capture another city ...

In the next players tuirn (you EARP, I think) 3 more cities were captured, and IRO destroyed...

Unfortunately, in the space of 2 turns, we had a trade broken, not our fault, and then the ROP-rape. In hindsight, we probably should have checked ... thta is to say I should have checked outstnading deals, and waited 2 turns. I think we would had a few less cities (instead of grabbing 7 of 10 fro IRO, maybe 3 or 4), but we might still have a rep...

Sigh
 
@Earp - I think we need to se how many turns we will still have on our pre-build conerted to ToE, then look at maybe going faster for a small tech (like Nationalism or refining or steel in 4 or 5 turns if that's what is left), a medium tech (replace parts at say 7-9 turns), or a slower pace for a small tech (i.e gaining more cash stockpile.

If we only have 1 to 3 turns, we should switch Sci off and max gold.

Then we go Atomic and Elctronic. NOTE - if we go the NO sci rute, we must change to the right tech (i.e. Atomic) the turn before, I think, or is it already selected, just running at 0% ?

I do know from GOTM21 experiences that we can have a tech finish the SAME turn as ToE, because tech completion and new tech selection occurs BEFORE building completion, so we cn complete a tech, change to Atomic, get ToE, get Atomic for free, Choose Electronic and get it for free, and then move toa new tech as normal. Then we obviously also change the Hoover's pre-build that turn to Hoover's and away we go ...
 
Diplo win will still be on. We will be against Persia, so we need our vote, Ghandis vote and we need Liz to abstein.

On the turn we build the UN we give liz 100g and sign a MPP (so long as she isn't at war with India).

There is a chance that we will be against Ghandi. But I think we can get a good relationship with Persia.

I'm not scared of a diplo. I also think we can win by space, but will need lots of money for sabotage :)

From TOE the 2 most expensive tech are AT and Electronics. So as Wanderer says, we either time TOE to Coincide with SM or we research another tech that will finish on the same turn as TOE, or we turn off research after SM. Personally, if there is something other than AT to research that the AI soesn't have I'd research it.
We may be able to get to 4 turn research shortly and so make a break for a tech lead.

I definitely would not research any optional techs that would delay fission. In fact I would sell AT to the AI and bankrupt them, swap electronics for flight, and start the UN pre-build whilst researching Radio.

We need banks, and stock exchanges. I vote we also start to build defensive units, and just protect our currrent investment now. I don't think another war is viable in the near future, if ever.
 
Defence Good !!!

Rep parts will stand us in good stead, so we can ignore nationalsim unless we want to try and get espionage soon.

ciao
 
Here are a couple of interesting items. I didn't agree to any of these deals, but found them interesting none the less.

All three civs will give us a RoP. :confused: Did we not break a RoP agreement with Iroquois?
Ctr1_1050AD_England_rop.jpg

Ctr1_1050AD_India_rop.jpg

Ctr1_1050AD_Persia_rop.jpg


Lizzy will still sell us her wines for gpt. It is expensive, but it is the only luxury we lack.
Ctr1_1050AD_England.jpg


Turn report coming soon.
 
0 - 1050 AD
MM Dark Chocolate so that it grows in 7 and still completes factory in 4.
Dark Blue has 40 shields. ToE costs 600 shields. At 40 spt, it will take 14 more turns to build. Not much need to rush to get Scientific Method. Being the first to Scientific Method will actually lower its cost to other civs. Other the other hand, as Wanderer posted above, if we get SM asap, we might be able to research another cheap tech before building ToE. Right now, Nationalism and Sanitation are 6 turns, Refining 9, Steel 10, and Rep Parts 11.
I set research at 60% to get SM in 7 turns.

1 - 1060 AD
Osaka factory --> Bank
Osaka is now at 34 spt (after corruption). I mine two tiles and get it up to 39 spt (after corruption) and 0 fpt. I switch the bank to a courthouse to get it over 40 spt. I disband a warrior for two shields so that the 80 shield courthouse will finish in two turns.
I see that we are still improving tiles around hopelessly corrupt cities. Memphis is building the iron works. It will complete in 260 turns, which works out to 1991AD. :rolleyes: Of Memphis' 27 gpt, 25 is lost to corruption. We have four workers improving tiles around Memphis. These workers should be improving tiles in our core. At least the tiles in our core have a chance to provide us some return.
SM is now due in 5 turns at 60%.

IBT Our lux deal comes up for renewal with England. Lizzy likes to make gowns with our fine Dyes and Silks. She has been giving us spices in exchange. Oddly enough, she will not pay us 1 bloody cent for our dyes and silks, but will happily trade us spices and 7 gpt. :confused: We pat ourselves on the back for increasing our coffers by 7 gpt.
Ctr1_1060AD_England_lux1.jpg

Ctr1_1060AD_England_lux7.jpg


2 - 1070 AD
Kagoshima Harbor --> Factory
An american and frenchman join Dark Chocolate to bring its pop up to 12.
Move workers

IBT Our lux deal comes up for renewal with Persia. Xerxes likes to smoke our incense and wear silk nighties. In exchange he has been supplying us with furs to keep us warm during the winter. I can't squeeze anything else out of him, so we keep the deal going as it is. I have the feeling that our two luxuries are helping him more than his one luxury is helping us.

3 - 1080 AD
Osaka Courthouse --> Bank -- Osaka is now 40 spt(after corruption)
Persia got Rep Parts this turn.
SM is due in 3 turns.

IBT Our lux deal with Gandhi comes up for renewal. He is paying us 22 gpt for dyes. I try to change the deal and he won't give us more than 5 gpt. I tell him no thanks.

4 - 1090 AD
Kyoto Factory --> Musket -- Kyoto is at 42 spt(after corruption) The musket can be vetoed. I felt that I had to build at least one defensive unit. :)
Dark Chocolate Factory --> University -- Dark Chocolate is at 40 spt(after corruption)
We now have 4 cities at 40+ spt
Ring up Gandhi on the phone and ask him how much he misses those dyes. He says he will gives us 26 gpt. We tell him sure.

5 - 1100 AD
Niagara Falls Settler --> Worker
Grand River Settler --> Worker
Baltimore Courthouse --> Factory
Satsuma University --> Factory
Fortify a Settler in Salamanca. Maybe someone else sees a spot to use him.
The other settler is in Niagara Falls.

Scientific Method is due next turn. Dark blue is our pre-build for ToE. I think it will have eight more turns on ToE after you switch it off the Palace next turn.

Osaka should be switched from Bank to Palace next turn as the pre-build for Hoovers. Osaka is already at 80 shields and will be able to build Hoovers quickest.

Should we research Sanitation before ToE completes? The only options are Nationalism(6 turns) or Sanitation(5 turns). We might be able to run a deficit and squeeze in Refining, Steel, or Rep Parts. I think we should research one of these five before completing ToE and then switch our research to Atomic Theory and set it at 0%. We should take Atomic Theory and Electronics with ToE. When we are sure that we are going to get Hoovers, we can trade Atomic Theory and try to catch up some techs.

The Save
 
<delurk>

Re: :confused: about selling your luxes...

Once your credit reputation is broken, the AI's will not pay cash down (not a single penny, not even a map) for something you're supplying per turn (goods or alliance), nor will they accept per-turn payment from a shifty bum like you for anything they're supplying "up front" (map, tech, or cash.)

The credit rep is broken whenever any trade agreement is disrupted when you have anything left to deliver on the clock (gpt, alliance, resources/luxuries) for which there was any up-front payment on the AI side (cash or map or tech) ... except when the AI sacrifices the remaining value by declaring war on you.

So even in the silly case, Elizabeth isn't going to pay you 1 gold up front for the promise of 20 shipments of silk. She'll pay you 7 per turn, because she doesn't put out the money until she gets the silk; that's how she has to deal with welchers like you.

It can help preserve your credit against route loss and extinctions, if you don't sell your goods for the AI's maps and techs. Sell the goods to the AI for GPT, and then use the GPT to buy the tech in a separate deal. (A route loss won't disrupt your repayment of the gold for the tech, but it will disrupt your repayment of goods. If the AI bought the goods for GPT, there's no reputation damage in losing the route. If they bought them with a tech, you're branded from then on.)

I suspect most reputations get broken when an ordinary lux-for-gpt deal has a map thrown in, which the AI's always do, because they are eeevul and out to get you.
<relurk>
 
Thanks, Puzzlinon.

I knew there was some screwy ways of exactly how the rep hits happen, and ways I could get around it. The map included with the sale explains most of the discrepencies I have seen.
 
Thanks for the excellent explanation Puzzlinon. IMO, this should be added to the FAQ.
 
I did some more testing on the trades. It does disagree with Puzzlinon in one aspect, though....

I made a similar post in my "AI attitude" article which is linked in my signature, so you can feel free to post any comments or discrepancies in that thread.

(note: the bigger the number, the worse it is for you, so +4 is worse than +1 for attitude purposes).

If you make a trade with another civ, and the trade route is broken, there is different consequences depending on what was traded and how the deal was set up.

I tested this with pillaging a road in nuetral territory.

If you are giving a resource (or gpt), and the AI also gives you a resource (or gpt) in that deal, then it is +1, and you can still make trades later on. Even if a lump sum payment is being given by the AI as part of the deal, you get this smaller penalty if the AI is giving you a resource or gpt payment as part of the deal.

If you paid with a lump sum for a resource from the AI, then you get the same +1 penalty, even though you were the one screwed in the deal.

If you are giving a resource, and receive just techs, a map, or lump sum payments, it is +4, and you get the 'rep hit' by not being able to sell any resources for lump sum (or maps), or to pay with gpt payments. However, you can still trade resources, as long as the AI isn't giving up any lump sum payment, or maps in the deal.

So, in other words, get the AI to give you gpt payments or resources in any deals where you are giving a resource!!
 
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