ChrTh
Happy Yule!
I'm beginning to think we're going to need to shift into a builder mode and go for a Space Race victory. We have a whole mess of cities, so we should be able to start Teching it. Any thoughts?
CTR1 -- Jump Without Looking (the Deity Virgin Sacrifice)
- Thread starter ChrTh
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IF Persia have fission then they are up 5 techs. We may be able to trade the odd tech from England if we can get something they haven't, but I think Space is less and less likely now.
I don't mind which way we go. Domination is the most straightforward, and if we have enough cash we might be able to sabotage Persian Production to give us a few turns breather.
If we go for domination we may well have to take out the Persian cities on our continent to finish the job.
It might even be beneficial to take peace now while India has a couple of cities. This will keep Persia at war for a few turns whilst we are at peace.
Can we use mobilisation? It's only an exploit if you use it to cheat.
In peace time we can build an army quicker, and this will save us turns too.
I would estimate less than 40 turns to a Persian Space win. They only need half a dozen techs and they will be able to build each part simultaneously in around 6 turns.
If we use mobilisation then we will not be able to build non-military units, and we can't switch to normalcy until peace is declared.
So, here is my take.
Switch to war mobilisation now, first. Take peace with India. This keeps Persia at war and will allow us to change back out of war mobilisation.
We switch off science. For the money, and to make sure we are all focussed on the single objective.
We build an army for 15 turns and sign an MPP with Persia. If England took Peace with the Indians it may be that they broke their MPP with Persia. If Persia get the UN they would be silly to call a vote.
We will need to buy flight from the Persians.
We steal Techs from England until they declare. We use any cash we can to rush temples, but we also rush settlers. We can just flood the terrain with towns so we don't have to wait for temples to expand our borders.
England has a couple of cities on a small island. We leave them alone to protect against a cultural loss.
We take the English city on our continent for peace and move all our troops back to the mainland.
We declare on Persia and start taking the remaining cities on our continenent.
We all need to focus on a single objective. There is no room for hedging our bets now. Things have changed over the last 10 turns....
I don't mind which way we go. Domination is the most straightforward, and if we have enough cash we might be able to sabotage Persian Production to give us a few turns breather.
If we go for domination we may well have to take out the Persian cities on our continent to finish the job.
It might even be beneficial to take peace now while India has a couple of cities. This will keep Persia at war for a few turns whilst we are at peace.
Can we use mobilisation? It's only an exploit if you use it to cheat.
In peace time we can build an army quicker, and this will save us turns too.
I would estimate less than 40 turns to a Persian Space win. They only need half a dozen techs and they will be able to build each part simultaneously in around 6 turns.
If we use mobilisation then we will not be able to build non-military units, and we can't switch to normalcy until peace is declared.
So, here is my take.
Switch to war mobilisation now, first. Take peace with India. This keeps Persia at war and will allow us to change back out of war mobilisation.
We switch off science. For the money, and to make sure we are all focussed on the single objective.
We build an army for 15 turns and sign an MPP with Persia. If England took Peace with the Indians it may be that they broke their MPP with Persia. If Persia get the UN they would be silly to call a vote.
We will need to buy flight from the Persians.
We steal Techs from England until they declare. We use any cash we can to rush temples, but we also rush settlers. We can just flood the terrain with towns so we don't have to wait for temples to expand our borders.
England has a couple of cities on a small island. We leave them alone to protect against a cultural loss.
We take the English city on our continent for peace and move all our troops back to the mainland.
We declare on Persia and start taking the remaining cities on our continenent.
We all need to focus on a single objective. There is no room for hedging our bets now. Things have changed over the last 10 turns....
I agree with most of what you say Mad, but when we are in mobilisation we can't build Temples.
edit: I don't think we need to mobilize if we take peace with India.
The important thing is single focus, we must build Temples and Tanks *only*, with perhaps the occational Infantry.
@Wanderer: What units are Persia using to take the Indian cities?
edit: I don't think we need to mobilize if we take peace with India.
The important thing is single focus, we must build Temples and Tanks *only*, with perhaps the occational Infantry.
@Wanderer: What units are Persia using to take the Indian cities?
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A couple more points.
If we go this route, then we should raze English cities and re-settle them. This will not tie down our troops so much and it will reduce flipping. Because the new cities will be small, and we won't have granaries over there we should join in workers to get the pops above 6 where possible.
We will not need scientists. Someone will need to do the delightful job of switching all specialists ot Taxmen
If war weariness kicks in we should draft citizens in all our big cities so we have 2 units per city at home and then switch to Monarchy. This will allow us to cash rush.
I would change all our production on the English continent to settlers now. Upgrade our boats to transports ASAP. We don't need any other types of ship because all our transporting will be done on peace turns. We need to ship around 50 workers to England for railing and joining purposes.
Come on guys, lets get this show on the road.
If we go this route, then we should raze English cities and re-settle them. This will not tie down our troops so much and it will reduce flipping. Because the new cities will be small, and we won't have granaries over there we should join in workers to get the pops above 6 where possible.
We will not need scientists. Someone will need to do the delightful job of switching all specialists ot Taxmen
If war weariness kicks in we should draft citizens in all our big cities so we have 2 units per city at home and then switch to Monarchy. This will allow us to cash rush.
I would change all our production on the English continent to settlers now. Upgrade our boats to transports ASAP. We don't need any other types of ship because all our transporting will be done on peace turns. We need to ship around 50 workers to England for railing and joining purposes.
Come on guys, lets get this show on the road.
Here are my thoughts.
I still think this is our best option. We do not need all of the territory on our continent for a domination victory. I will run MapStat again and see exactly how far away from domination we are.
I dont think we have a chance to win a space race victory with Persia. Persia is too far ahead. We would have to declare war on them and some how slow them down while catching up in techs ourselves. I think domination is a better option.
I agree with all of this, but I do not have very much experience with mobilization. Do we get enough of a production bonus while mobilized to warrant the inability to build non-military units? How many tanks do we currently have? Do we need to wait 15 turns to build up a sizeable enough force to attack England. 15 turns sounds like a long time to me. I think it would be safer to get Persia and Enlgand fighting before Persia finishes the UN. I am not sure if we will need the Persian cities on our continent for a domination victory.
I agree with the raze and re-settle, but why do we need to increase the pops above 6? To increase their defensive value?
I agree with all of this.
Here is some data from MapStat for 1350 AD
Total tiles: 2439
Tiles reqd for domination: 1627 (66.7%)
Japan: 885 acquired tiles (36.3%) - 742 to limit (30.4%)
India: 221 acquired tiles (9%)
Persia: 586 acquired tiles (24%)
England: 555 acquired tiles (23%)
Unclaimed: 192 acquired tiles (8%)
England and India had 776 tiles and we need 742 to reach the domination limit. I think it will depend on how many of the unclaimed tiles are in territory we can claim. I am not sure if we will have to fight Persia or not.
Total tiles: 2439
Tiles reqd for domination: 1627 (66.7%)
Japan: 885 acquired tiles (36.3%) - 742 to limit (30.4%)
India: 221 acquired tiles (9%)
Persia: 586 acquired tiles (24%)
England: 555 acquired tiles (23%)
Unclaimed: 192 acquired tiles (8%)
England and India had 776 tiles and we need 742 to reach the domination limit. I think it will depend on how many of the unclaimed tiles are in territory we can claim. I am not sure if we will have to fight Persia or not.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
What were the numbers for Population? I remember thinking that we might reach the tiles limit but not the pop limit in time...
Total pop: 1334
Pop reqd for domination: 890 (66.7%)
Japan: 460 acquired pop (34.5%) - 430 to limit (32.2%)
India: 81 acquired pop (6%)
Persia: 482 acquired pop (36%)
England: 311 acquired pop (23%)
You are right that we need lots more population.
This might be a good reason to capture the English cities instead of razing them. We will just have to re-capture them after they flip. Maybe some of our high food cities should produce workers between tanks to be able to add to low food cities.
Edit:
After taking out the Indians and English, we will basically need to double Persia's pop to be able to win by domination. An eventual war with Xerxes may be inevitable.
Pop reqd for domination: 890 (66.7%)
Japan: 460 acquired pop (34.5%) - 430 to limit (32.2%)
India: 81 acquired pop (6%)
Persia: 482 acquired pop (36%)
England: 311 acquired pop (23%)
You are right that we need lots more population.
This might be a good reason to capture the English cities instead of razing them. We will just have to re-capture them after they flip. Maybe some of our high food cities should produce workers between tanks to be able to add to low food cities.Edit:
After taking out the Indians and English, we will basically need to double Persia's pop to be able to win by domination. An eventual war with Xerxes may be inevitable.
Wanderer
King
To answer the question I saw - Persia have Mech Inf, at least 1 army on our continent with1 mech inf in it, and tanks, They have, I estimate, as least 20+tanks on our continent currently, and they have several battleships.
A war that against Persia IS inevitable. No doubt! They have several size 27 cities ... I think SUICIDE SOD's will need to target their biggest for razing.
Diplo isn't going to happen - we will not win, only lose. If england exists, diplo is out. We will have to take england for DOM.
HENCE war with ENG - QED. Therefore, MPP with perisa ?
Also, there is really no way, that india are going to last. Their captial WILL fall - persia have something like 10 tanks and 4 mech inf parked there now, and it is defended by riflemen. Their remaining city is tundra bound, size 1. It will fall! Forget India - they are dead either as soon as I end turn, or else after the next turn at the ABSOLUTE LATEST.
Mad- I think your 40 turns MIGHT be a bit fast, but maybe not. IF we MPP Perisa, then SPY/Steal for WAR from ENG, they would like go into COM, applying some breaks on tech hopefully.
As soon as INDIA are dead, our WW will go. We should become massively more productive and economically sound.
TECHS - we can't catch the space race ... forget it. Even in our best period, we cannot compete 1 on 1 with Persia. Without MODERN ARMOUR, tanks ar going to struggle with city bound mech inf ... remember we will be aggressor, so they'll have defence bonusses on the 16 defense ! Maybe an HUGE number of artillery -- and I mean 20 in a SOD. Do we ignore computer, and try and push for modern armour ... I think so
CASH - we will need 1000's for tech steal's etc. WEe probably should look to try and max that now, while we can try and steal techs that other have, because we may have to self study the last few techs to modern armour.
SPACERACE - we cannot really compete in productivity - we are rated 2nd or 3rd - and you KNOW Persia are going to be number 1. With the Deity prod advantage, even in a even race, we would lose.
conquest ... I don't think so.
REALLLY, DOMINATION is all tha's left.
Domination thoughts :
Must get settlers. Must grab indian lands. Will need to be able to expand to take English lands. Downside here is that it will cost us pop, in the short term. Let's get those big cities popping settlers, -I suspect we have some 1 turn candidate that could stand to lose 4 to 6 settlers and still catch up again.
to summarize :
Peace India - try for size 1 city in the north.
MPP persia. India won't attack, so we won't have to war.
Reduce Sci - max
change prod to settlers in large, big food cities
review cities, and take adv of reduced WW. Turn sci/ent to tax where possible and necessary (cash from tax < population needed)
end turn 4
India die
Turn 5
max cash
MM cities for growth, then cash.
Balance settler prod with temples in new lands, and tanks.
ensure we have pre-build going for airport on south island.
more ???
A war that against Persia IS inevitable. No doubt! They have several size 27 cities ... I think SUICIDE SOD's will need to target their biggest for razing.
Diplo isn't going to happen - we will not win, only lose. If england exists, diplo is out. We will have to take england for DOM.
HENCE war with ENG - QED. Therefore, MPP with perisa ?
Also, there is really no way, that india are going to last. Their captial WILL fall - persia have something like 10 tanks and 4 mech inf parked there now, and it is defended by riflemen. Their remaining city is tundra bound, size 1. It will fall! Forget India - they are dead either as soon as I end turn, or else after the next turn at the ABSOLUTE LATEST.
Mad- I think your 40 turns MIGHT be a bit fast, but maybe not. IF we MPP Perisa, then SPY/Steal for WAR from ENG, they would like go into COM, applying some breaks on tech hopefully.
As soon as INDIA are dead, our WW will go. We should become massively more productive and economically sound.
TECHS - we can't catch the space race ... forget it. Even in our best period, we cannot compete 1 on 1 with Persia. Without MODERN ARMOUR, tanks ar going to struggle with city bound mech inf ... remember we will be aggressor, so they'll have defence bonusses on the 16 defense ! Maybe an HUGE number of artillery -- and I mean 20 in a SOD. Do we ignore computer, and try and push for modern armour ... I think so
CASH - we will need 1000's for tech steal's etc. WEe probably should look to try and max that now, while we can try and steal techs that other have, because we may have to self study the last few techs to modern armour.
SPACERACE - we cannot really compete in productivity - we are rated 2nd or 3rd - and you KNOW Persia are going to be number 1. With the Deity prod advantage, even in a even race, we would lose.
conquest ... I don't think so.
REALLLY, DOMINATION is all tha's left.
Domination thoughts :
Must get settlers. Must grab indian lands. Will need to be able to expand to take English lands. Downside here is that it will cost us pop, in the short term. Let's get those big cities popping settlers, -I suspect we have some 1 turn candidate that could stand to lose 4 to 6 settlers and still catch up again.
to summarize :
Peace India - try for size 1 city in the north.
MPP persia. India won't attack, so we won't have to war.
Reduce Sci - max
change prod to settlers in large, big food cities
review cities, and take adv of reduced WW. Turn sci/ent to tax where possible and necessary (cash from tax < population needed)
end turn 4
India die
Turn 5
max cash
MM cities for growth, then cash.
Balance settler prod with temples in new lands, and tanks.
ensure we have pre-build going for airport on south island.
more ???
Wanderer
King
@Earp - nope - when Persia took Lahore on the coast above us, while I took Calcutta and etc (the capital's) the got the jump on us by flanking us ( the always were able to, since they were coming from the sea) and while I saved 1 cit for us, I can't do anything about the others. I am HOPING I can get the small city for peace ... that would be a coup in itself, ... but not very hopeful. They don't usually give away cities when they have only 2 left.
Can I be honest and say, I think this one is a losing battle !
Can I be honest and say, I think this one is a losing battle !
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Persias Pop will not grow as fast as ours. We have losts of workers to join to cities. I think we'll be fine.
Mobilisation is tricky. We get an extra shield for every tile producing at least one shield, but no extra commerce. We can only build military units, and we cannot change government untill we are completely at peace or the Civs we are fighting have gone.
Lots of the cities we have taken are going to flip. We will also lose more on the English continent. We are that culturally weak.
15 turns is a lot. Maybe we can get to unit parity before then, and because we'll be attacking we will have the advantage. Also Prsia will keep the English busy at sea, and hopefully bothe their navies will degrade.
Obviously we should attempt to steal flight from England b4 buying it from Xerses.
Once we have finished England we can always reduce Xerses population with nukes if necessary. Our cities are smaller than his and we have more workers. Therefore Nuke for nuke we'll be better off.
Mobilisation is tricky. We get an extra shield for every tile producing at least one shield, but no extra commerce. We can only build military units, and we cannot change government untill we are completely at peace or the Civs we are fighting have gone.
Lots of the cities we have taken are going to flip. We will also lose more on the English continent. We are that culturally weak.
15 turns is a lot. Maybe we can get to unit parity before then, and because we'll be attacking we will have the advantage. Also Prsia will keep the English busy at sea, and hopefully bothe their navies will degrade.
Obviously we should attempt to steal flight from England b4 buying it from Xerses.
Once we have finished England we can always reduce Xerses population with nukes if necessary. Our cities are smaller than his and we have more workers. Therefore Nuke for nuke we'll be better off.
Wanderer
King
nuke trading with perisa, if we ever get there, would be better for us - he has fewer cites, and several at size 27, whereas our biggest is about 16... but I really don't know if we will get ther.
I would ignore mobilization for the next turn. India are going to be gone. Then we will not be at wr until the english war starts, and that won't be for a while yet.
Bear in mind, when english war starts, we probably SHOULD go mobilization, and we may well have to start the war before we are strong enough, and plan on using our numerical city to advantage.
Regarding culture flips - I recently played and if you are serious about starving the locals (I know it hurts pop, but which is worse, losing some pop, or losing 10 units to a flip ), I got through the entire game with only 1 flip.
How about it ... do I have a go-ahead for the next turn and 1/2 ( I want at least SPACE, CHRTH, EARP and MAD to repsond, SHARD as well if he's back yet).
After that, we can have a save game and everyone can review.
Please post GO/no go votes on my previous plan for turn 4 and 5...
I would ignore mobilization for the next turn. India are going to be gone. Then we will not be at wr until the english war starts, and that won't be for a while yet.
Bear in mind, when english war starts, we probably SHOULD go mobilization, and we may well have to start the war before we are strong enough, and plan on using our numerical city to advantage.
Regarding culture flips - I recently played and if you are serious about starving the locals (I know it hurts pop, but which is worse, losing some pop, or losing 10 units to a flip ), I got through the entire game with only 1 flip.
How about it ... do I have a go-ahead for the next turn and 1/2 ( I want at least SPACE, CHRTH, EARP and MAD to repsond, SHARD as well if he's back yet).
After that, we can have a save game and everyone can review.
Please post GO/no go votes on my previous plan for turn 4 and 5...
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Flight we are GO for launch
My understanding of Mobilization is that we would be able to de-mobilize when we feel like it before declaring war on England. We would of course have to mobilize before signing a peace treaty with India, or before they are wiped out.
This would be the order of things.
1. Mobilize
2. Peace with India
3. Build up military with extra production
4. De-mobilize
5. Declare war on England.
Edit: Disregard the nonsense in this post and see the Mobilization post below.
Wanderer
King
I thought we had to be at war to mobilize, and that as soon as we are at peace with everyone, we automatically move out of mobilize . true/false ?
Actually, I am pretty sure that I was wrong. Here is the Mobilization FAQ
From the article:
If we mobilize before India is destroyed, mobilization will end when India is destroyed or we sign a Peace Treaty. If we mobilize after India is destroyed, mobilization will not end until after we sign Peace with Enlgand.
From the article:
If we mobilize before India is destroyed, mobilization will end when India is destroyed or we sign a Peace Treaty. If we mobilize after India is destroyed, mobilization will not end until after we sign Peace with Enlgand.
Wanderer
King
so now we have :
Peace India - try for size 1 city in the north.
MPP persia. India won't attack, so we won't have to war.
Mobilize
Reduce Sci - max
change prod to settlers in large, big food cities
review cities, and take adv of reduced WW. Turn sci/ent to tax where possible and necessary (cash from tax < population needed)
end turn 4
India die
Turn 5
max cash
MM cities for growth, then cash.
Balance settler prod with temples in new lands, and tanks.
ensure we have pre-build going for airport on south island.
CHRTH has voted : GO
Earp :
Mad :
Space
Wanderer : GO
Shard : pass ?
Peace India - try for size 1 city in the north.
MPP persia. India won't attack, so we won't have to war.
Mobilize
Reduce Sci - max
change prod to settlers in large, big food cities
review cities, and take adv of reduced WW. Turn sci/ent to tax where possible and necessary (cash from tax < population needed)
end turn 4
India die
Turn 5
max cash
MM cities for growth, then cash.
Balance settler prod with temples in new lands, and tanks.
ensure we have pre-build going for airport on south island.
CHRTH has voted : GO
Earp :
Mad :
Space
Wanderer : GO
Shard : pass ?
