Culture through Espionage - Exploit?
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The way I see it, culture victories are speed runs, at least in terms of the final game date (rather than playing speed). Other games played under these conditions will often distinguish between "hack" runs and "non-hack" runs.
To take Mario Kart 64 as an example: on certain courses, large parts of any given lap can be bypassed through the use of certain accepted game mechanics. The aim of a speed run, particularly in a time trial environment, is to go as fast as possible. There is, as such, no good reason to exclude these shortcuts.
However, many players do not want to hop over a certain wall at a certain angle simply in order to remain competitive. I assume that such individuals want to feel that they are the "best" players of the game in the traditional sense, as it has been understood by all players of the game since the time of its release. It is not enough to simply be seen as the "best" at incorporating an obscure shortcut into a record attempt, when the successful execution of this shortcut effectively guarantees a faster time than traditional approaches.
As such, there are two sets of records: one for those speed runs that employ these shortcuts, and one for those that do not. I'd favor a similar distinction for culture victories in Civ 4, mutatis mutandis.
Now feel free to pick at the holes in my analogy.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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That would be...difficult
. You've captured the "must do this to be competitive", "varies in some way from expected/traditional approach", and the resulting differences in competitive preference quite well.Off Topic: Blue shells can suck it though, especially in later games where they remove items
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Correction: 5% -> 0.05% -> 5%
Doomstriker's conjecture that someone made this change (->0.05%) thinking that 5% was too big is highly improbable. More likely the culture injection value was accidently divided by 100 twice rather just once in BtS 3.13. This latter explanation is consistent with the in game documenation which always said the culture increase would be 5%.
Sun Tzu Wu
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Thread seems fine to me.
We are arguing over what to do about CtE in BOTM games. As the OP said:
1) Leave it be
2) Ban it
3) Create a new award for it
4) Mod it out of the game
The main reasons to get rid of it are to retain fun, gameplay variety, and because we just plain like regular cultural victories.
Heaven help you if you try to reason someone out of something they like
Even if you succeed, they gonna be unhappy and know who to blame.
I still like #3 because it makes everyone happy if it is technically possible.
I can't give a technical reason why #3. Civ 4 BTS is what it is for better or worse.
The exact same reasons apply for keeping the espionage assisted cultural victory strategy too.
Regular in this case meaning culture from tranditional sources and espionage.I'll point out again that espionage and culture in BtS are closely related; just try the "No espionage" option and you will see many things that were espionage are now cultural in nature.
Espionage enhancing culture happens all over the world. Culture does not just spread by word of mouth. A great deal of money is spent promoting culture (including communist nations); it is certainly fair to consider this espionage too. A great deal of both Communist (ongoing) and Nazi culture was based on espionage; espionage affecting culture happens in western countries too. Some players may not like espionage affecting culture, but it happens in both real life and in BtS as well.
Sun Tzu Wu
Bah, what a can of worms. No easy fix. Can think of arguments for and against any game change.
Thought people would be happier with anewdifferent way to win games, but nobody likes spies
I do like the new/different way to win! And I'm looking forward to playing it in whatever form it survives.
I just don't consider it culture. If there was a spy mission to 'buy spaceship' with EPs, then I could research to alphabet, generate EPs, and launch! without worrying about all those pesky techs, corps, and spaceship parts, etc. Would that be a space race victory?
Maybe there should be a mission called "Stuff ballot box" and/or "trigger election". That way I could win Diplo without having to get votes or research MassMedia or build the UN.
TheMeInTeam
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The designers did not link it to space, but clearly linked it with culture. There are logical reasons for that, but those may or may not be their reasons.
This is currently possible, and is regularly accepted as a victory condition and has been since the inception of BTS. It was given its own separate category and is the ultimate precedent for CtE --> a BTS feature that trivializes a previous approach to a given victory condition.
Look at the score screen for AP finishes and UN finishes, or the victory text. Does the game say "you have won a religious victory!" or "you have won RLDV!". No, it does not. Without looking at the dates and game log, it would not be apparent which method was used to achieve a diplomatic victory. CtE is virtually identical.
Htadus
A and L's dad
There is a lot of good discussion in that thread, from me and several others. XOTM banning this tactic would be irresponsible based on simply nonsense like:
Bunch of quotes including my nonsensical comparison of this EXPLOIT to the Protective Wall whip/chop EXPLOIT.
Anyway, how about a reasonable, logical basis for banning something?
Come on now guys. At least try a little.
Ok, I will try to be logical. But I may not be as logical as you and discuss at a very high level. So I am going to try but with simple terms.
Culture victory:
Develop enough culture in 3 cities to reach legendary status.
All you need is 3 cities and a lot of effort from the player to develop culture in those three cities. But that is the hardest way to do the culture game. Add three more cities and things got a bit better and easier. Not only does the 3 additional cities help by making available more major culture buildings for more than single city but it also gives a bit of security from Monti and Shaka and the similar that may be looming nearby. Of course add three more cities and things are optimal for a culture game. And now these cities can start working on creating culture to reach legendary (with or without GA's to bombs and most of the GA's come from the GP farm which is typically 1 of the LC cities).
Of course these empires are always under threat by other AI for the fact they are inevitably weak and the players diplomacy skills are as important as the knowledge about culture. Of course finishing a culture game as fast as possible, for xOTM's, require the player to play at a very high level.
The difference between the traditional culture game and the EP culture theft game is that you do not have to be weak nor play at a high level and for that matter the 3 cities do not even have to be yours. This is where the exploit aspect of EP based culture victory surface its ugly head.
Can anyone tell me if Paris, ended being one of Nazi Germany's 3 legendary culture cities along with Munich and Berlin? Or did it ended up being a French cultural heritage for eternity?
Espionage culture. Now there is an oxymoron.
I would like to continue but I am on vacation and my 20 mins of Net is up.
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Right, BtS provides a shortcut to a Diplomatic Victory (Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory) prior to the building of The United Nations.
The BtS espionage systemnprovides multiple shortcuts to all victory conditions. We just need to apply resources to the espionage in synergy with other game activities to achieve an earlier than otherwise possible victory. This absolutely was intentional; otherwise why bother to add the espionage system to the game if it is not both profitable and fun to use.
Sun Tzu Wu
The BtS espionage systemnprovides multiple shortcuts to all victory conditions. We just need to apply resources to the espionage in synergy with other game activities to achieve an earlier than otherwise possible victory. This absolutely was intentional; otherwise why bother to add the espionage system to the game if it is not both profitable and fun to use.
Sun Tzu Wu
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From many of the comments in this thread, I can tell that very few posters seem to know the currently best strategy for winning a (traditional) cultural victory at the higher difficulty levels. Without knowing how this tradition cultural victory strategy works, it is hard to argue for or against the new espionage assisted cultural victory strategy. So, I've a linked jesusin's article below. Enjoy and profit from the knowledge contained there in!
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/culture_victory.php
Sun Tzu Wu
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/culture_victory.php
Sun Tzu Wu
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Funneling
into spies eats into your ability to "not be weak". 50 spies for example is 2000 ...enough to build six cathedrals and still have some left over for temples and monasteries...and this is BEFORE you factor in investments that provide 
. Also, since you're spending as much as possible by going for the win, you're necessarily not maintaining a serious tech advantage during the process.Unless I'm mistaken, for the win actually be competitive, you need to have enough base
inside the cities that each mission is worth a useful amount. You also want to optimize the multipliers such that each mission costs less --> these cities are likely originally yours or have limited AI culture in them, so that you can get a better conversion rate (reduced cost for your culture being very dominant in their city). Kait artist bombed the city then gifted it IIRC.So yes, there is still risk. The actual difference between CtE and traditional culture is the rate at which it is possible to win CtE. The risk is only reduced insofar that you're subject to AI RNG calls for fewer turns because you're winning sooner. This risk difference is also comparable to that between RLDV and UN incidentally.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Funneling
TMIT, it is quite obvious you are no culture player and that you seem to think that the hammers for all those spy's are coming from the 3 cities. Also it seem that you have not made a EP culture game video yet. EP culture game is just a conquest or space game. In other words get enough land and start abusing the hammer power from conquests to drive the espionage points. So the culture game is played by the entire 2000 city empire( intended exaggeration) instead of 3 culture cities and a puny support empire. The mechanism is broken for this purpose hence it is an exploit. Why can I not have the protective hammer boost that gave me all that gold with Buffy? Why is that an exploit and this is not?
I am very interested on this subject. I have been since Kossin talked about it, but I never had the time to test it myself.
Disclaimer: My words can nad should be taken as subjective, as I am far too much interested in cultural games and I play Civ as a competition (do whatever it takes to win faster, attack the problem as if it was a mathematical one) rather than as a recreation of the real world. Luckily I don't have many records in the HOF tables to "protect".
My first impression and still the dominant one today is this:
- A new method has been found, it is faster than all other methods, hail Kossin! hail Kaitzilla! hail WastinTime! I wish I was the one to discover this other method. Let the old ideas die, as we let other ideas die in the past (example: researching up to radio for the towers multipliers).
Now, after doing some maths and after listening to what people that have alrady tried the new method say, I consider that doing nothing is not an option. The mechanism is overpowered. Conversion rates of 4 per 1 are not well balanced.
What end result would I want to get in the end? I'd love to see this tactic predominant in some maps and suboptimal in others. I'd like to see this tactic as a complement to a typical cultural game in some special situations.
Am I in favor of banning? No. Mostly not. In part, yes. I'll explain:
- Gifting a city and then retaking it for a big profit is dirty. It shouldn't be allowed.
- But now, in a cultural game, stopping research after Liberalism and deliberately falling behind in techs is dirty and it's allowed.
- But now, in a single continent conquest game, stopping research after The Wheel and building nothing but chariots is dirty and it's allowed.
So a full ban it's not my preferred option.
Will I play this way sometime? Yes, I will, just as I have played only-chariots-conquest-games. I will play, perfect my methods, put a record in and never do it again, as I did with gold medals or other victory conditions.
My suggestion is to nerf the tactic to stop it being abusive. Several options come to mind:
- Ban gifting cities.
- Impose a 20 turns peace period after city gifting on the excuse "we won't attack our former colleagues"
- Limit the number of spy units you can hold at the same time to 5, as executives are (or as missionaries are limited to 3).
- Ban the spread culture mission.
- Change discounts and multiliers for the spread culture mission.
- Put a limit to the 5% calculation (5%, max 500c).
- Change the 5% calculation to a constant +100c.
- Change the 5% calculation to a 1% calculation.
- Make the spy diplo penalty a cummulative one.
- Make failed spy missions cost in
- Automatic close borders and war declaration (with consequent spy teleporting) upon the third spy caught on the same turn.
I am not the right person to consider the feasibility, impact on other legitimate strategies, or convenience of this proposals. I'd say that limiting the number of spy units you can have or be building civ-wide to 5 is the perfect solution.
I am very short of time. I am sure I am forgetting important things I'd like to add.
Thanks for reading. I will accept and defend any decision the HOF Staff and the xOTM Staff may take.
EDIT: The No-espionage ingame option is not a good solution, never ever allow this option in a competitive cultural game.
Disclaimer: My words can nad should be taken as subjective, as I am far too much interested in cultural games and I play Civ as a competition (do whatever it takes to win faster, attack the problem as if it was a mathematical one) rather than as a recreation of the real world. Luckily I don't have many records in the HOF tables to "protect".
My first impression and still the dominant one today is this:
- A new method has been found, it is faster than all other methods, hail Kossin! hail Kaitzilla! hail WastinTime! I wish I was the one to discover this other method. Let the old ideas die, as we let other ideas die in the past (example: researching up to radio for the towers multipliers).
Now, after doing some maths and after listening to what people that have alrady tried the new method say, I consider that doing nothing is not an option. The mechanism is overpowered. Conversion rates of 4
per 1 are not well balanced.What end result would I want to get in the end? I'd love to see this tactic predominant in some maps and suboptimal in others. I'd like to see this tactic as a complement to a typical cultural game in some special situations.
Am I in favor of banning? No. Mostly not. In part, yes. I'll explain:
- Gifting a city and then retaking it for a big profit is dirty. It shouldn't be allowed.
- But now, in a cultural game, stopping research after Liberalism and deliberately falling behind in techs is dirty and it's allowed.
- But now, in a single continent conquest game, stopping research after The Wheel and building nothing but chariots is dirty and it's allowed.
So a full ban it's not my preferred option.
Will I play this way sometime? Yes, I will, just as I have played only-chariots-conquest-games. I will play, perfect my methods, put a record in and never do it again, as I did with gold medals or other victory conditions.
My suggestion is to nerf the tactic to stop it being abusive. Several options come to mind:
- Ban gifting cities.
- Impose a 20 turns peace period after city gifting on the excuse "we won't attack our former colleagues"
- Limit the number of spy units you can hold at the same time to 5, as executives are (or as missionaries are limited to 3).
- Ban the spread culture mission.
- Change discounts and multiliers for the spread culture mission.
- Put a limit to the 5% calculation (5%, max 500c).
- Change the 5% calculation to a constant +100c.
- Change the 5% calculation to a 1% calculation.
- Make the spy diplo penalty a cummulative one.
- Make failed spy missions cost in
- Automatic close borders and war declaration (with consequent spy teleporting) upon the third spy caught on the same turn.
I am not the right person to consider the feasibility, impact on other legitimate strategies, or convenience of this proposals. I'd say that limiting the number of spy units you can have or be building civ-wide to 5 is the perfect solution.
I am very short of time. I am sure I am forgetting important things I'd like to add.
Thanks for reading. I will accept and defend any decision the HOF Staff and the xOTM Staff may take.
EDIT: The No-espionage ingame option is not a good solution, never ever allow this option in a competitive cultural game.
Daijin7
Chieftain
> In Vanilla culture of captured cities is set to zero.
After a closer look, I realized that statement of mine is wrong. Foreign culture is not available to the city in my possession. But formerly built culture in my own city, before loosing it, will still be there, when I recapture it, even in Vanilla.
Jesusin's suggestions look more substantial. I like to add one in that spirit:
d) Make spy missions impossible in a city after the third spy has been caught there.
After a closer look, I realized that statement of mine is wrong. Foreign culture is not available to the city in my possession. But formerly built culture in my own city, before loosing it, will still be there, when I recapture it, even in Vanilla.
Jesusin's suggestions look more substantial. I like to add one in that spirit:
d) Make spy missions impossible in a city after the third spy has been caught there.
Spoiler :
It would make it take 254 spy operations to increase to get a legendary city from 4000 culture. Seems a little to much. Up from 52. 185 operations needed with two artists.
Perhaps the limit is close to here. 113 operations from 4000 culture.
I would probably make spies useless for culture victory but it would make spies very powerful in peace only games. In normal games it is probably easier to capture the city then to wait for it to flip.
If we manage to balance spy culture with other culture I think we will end up with a situation where you do both. One or two from normal culture and one or two from espionage.
I like the not gifting cities. It seems as a lot of abuse. It will still make espionage culture victory possible but harder. You have to focus on cities where the AI has done some culture. You will risk having your spies being captured while waiting for multiplier bonuses. Problem is that you may just declare war and wait for the AI to capture a city with 70 spies hiding in. Also I think giving the AIs cities for peace in war should not be banned either.
vranasm
Deity
From gameplay perspective I don't see this strategy as ban worthy.
maybe readjust a bit the mission itself since the conversion of commerce favors espionage too much over other methods
From immersion perspective this strategy is plainly bad.
I could see from which point TMIt is coming and I can see from which direction WT is coming. And it's totally logical they are strongly against each other because both of them value immersion differently.
Now for what I am thinking... I actually am more on the immersion side of things... so I would say that best would be to limit somehow the influence of espionage on culture...
there is only limited amount what espionage could do in different country regarding culture and trust me... I have first hand experience coming from eastern block (Czech republic) and soviets did some great job here...
Biggest problem (aside from the stronger commerce conversion for espionage to culture) is probably that you can run unlimited number of missions influencing culture with no hard cap on anything...
The team could look into it with either readjusting the mission itself (put hardcap on overall % gained through the mission somehow, adjust the conversion rate) or make it separate "victory condition" if there will be way how to detect this behavior.
seems to me that the team will have to make new edition of BUFFY either way ;-) and maybe will make some more bugfixes then just this ;-).
(maybe we could even get some bugfixes from k-mod? please please).
Would be interesting to hear from people more familiar with k-mod about the balance approach in that mod, since I know there was some major overhaul of culture as is.
maybe readjust a bit the mission itself since the conversion of commerce favors espionage too much over other methods
From immersion perspective this strategy is plainly bad.
I could see from which point TMIt is coming and I can see from which direction WT is coming. And it's totally logical they are strongly against each other because both of them value immersion differently.
Now for what I am thinking... I actually am more on the immersion side of things... so I would say that best would be to limit somehow the influence of espionage on culture...
there is only limited amount what espionage could do in different country regarding culture and trust me... I have first hand experience coming from eastern block (Czech republic) and soviets did some great job here...
Biggest problem (aside from the stronger commerce conversion for espionage to culture) is probably that you can run unlimited number of missions influencing culture with no hard cap on anything...
The team could look into it with either readjusting the mission itself (put hardcap on overall % gained through the mission somehow, adjust the conversion rate) or make it separate "victory condition" if there will be way how to detect this behavior.
seems to me that the team will have to make new edition of BUFFY either way ;-) and maybe will make some more bugfixes then just this ;-).
(maybe we could even get some bugfixes from k-mod? please please
).Would be interesting to hear from people more familiar with k-mod about the balance approach in that mod, since I know there was some major overhaul of culture as is.
Lots of great new ideas coming. Modding the mission seems popular, but how and how much to nerf it?
@Folket: Your calculations indicate that you're in favor of trying to tweak SpyCulture so that it is equal to traditional and can still beat it on it's own. (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth,)
I'm in favor of more nerfing than that. There's no reason to leave this tactic in a state where it can still achieve 3 full legendary cities without any other culture elements. For example, the Sistine is a very powerful culture wonder. But should you be able to be competitive and win a culture victory with only that wonder?
EPs could produce some culture to assist in victory. But I'm ok if it would take 1000 missions/city (instead of the 100-200/city previously suggested).
@Folket: Your calculations indicate that you're in favor of trying to tweak SpyCulture so that it is equal to traditional and can still beat it on it's own. (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth,)
I'm in favor of more nerfing than that. There's no reason to leave this tactic in a state where it can still achieve 3 full legendary cities without any other culture elements. For example, the Sistine is a very powerful culture wonder. But should you be able to be competitive and win a culture victory with only that wonder?
EPs could produce some culture to assist in victory. But I'm ok if it would take 1000 missions/city (instead of the 100-200/city previously suggested).
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