Current Status + Future Updates

[Bahmo]

Quite frankly, I am not liking that. As far as I know, leaderhead infos haven't even been made for many of those civilizations, and that's not the full extent of the problem, either. I see no reason why so many member states have been split out of the European Union, when it's become such an important player in world affairs. These states will be more powerful together (a potential rival to the USA, as in real life) than they will be individually, and this is especially so with Civ4's bias towards large empires when determining strength. Furthermore, the EU as it exists in that list is going to be fragmented from itself--not a good thing. I say return the arrangement it had in the screenshots released in the map thread; that is, controlling everything in Western Europe but Switzerland, Scandinavia, and the UK.

Then, there's other states that need more representation because they can't be lumped so easily with the ones next to them. Mongolia is a democracy with a primarily Budhist population, bordering China, an undemocratic country with controversial relations to Budhism--that's important and needs to be addressed. Same with the more liberal, hedonistic United Arab Emirates being next to theocratic Saudi Arabia--somehow you need to address that. We should end up under 50 if we make all those changes, so I think we ought to do so.

 

[Yared]

Taiwan could take Mongolia. Also, all the nations in the European Union should be together. I don't understand why not, considering the US.

 

[Eerdna]

so neutral states is out?... aaah no costa rica...

 

[Bahmo]

Taiwan could take Mongolia.

I'd rather it didn't. Unlike their attitude towards Taiwan, China doesn't contest the legal status of Mongolia. The reverse is actually true; some people in Mongolia think "Inner Mongolia" should belong to them, not China, but the two nations aren't headbutting past a point, although Mongolia's more closely aligned to Russia today. So if anybody should control Mongolia, I'd say it should be Russia, but it might be best as its own country.

Also, all the nations in the European Union should be together. I don't understand why not, considering the US.

I agree; the only exception being the UK, as it was in the original map. I think that decision had a lot to do with the modern trend of it being more aligned with the US than it is with the continental states. I don't know about it being in charge of a "NATO" civilization, as it was in the original map, so that will have to be addressed.

so neutral states is out?... aaah no costa rica...

I guess EFTA is the neutral states, though I don't know what it stands for.

 

[Yared]

Yeah, the UK can be independent, to make the world a little more multi-polar. At least that'd be a country you'd have an actual chance of winning with (coughindependentSwedencough).

 

[Eerdna]

I guess EFTA is the neutral states, though I don't know what it stands for.

From Wikipedia:

The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) is a free trade organisation between four European countries that operates parallel, and is linked to, the European Union (EU).


Today, only Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein remain members of EFTA

i guess my homeland isnt in...

so the civs in Europe will remain only 2: Uk and the rest of europe?

i think it will be better just return to the old idea od 35 civs:
here the list taken fromthe first posts in the Civs Discussion tread...

Originally Posted by NikNaks View Post
Here is a list of all the civilizations planned to be included. They are up for comment and discussion.

United States of America - controls Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, Panama, Diego Garcia (Indian ocean), Pacific Islands (Midway, Guam, Marshal Islands, Samoa, etc), Iraq, Afghanistan.
Canada
Mexico
China
North Korea
Russia
Kazakhstan
Israel
Palestine (gaza strip + west bank).
Egypt
Iran - controls Syria.
South Korea
Nigeria
Pakistan
India
Venezuela - controls Cuba, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Paraguay.
Colombia
Brazil
Argentina
Myanmar
Japan
Australia
Philippines
Republic of Indonesia
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
South Africa
Taiwan
European Union - Euro nations.
Permanent Neutrality - Switzerland (capital), Costa Rica, Liechtenstein Turkmenistan.
NATO (non-EU) - UK (capital)*, Turkey, Iceland, Norway, Croatia, Albania.
Independent African States - Angola (capital), Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Zimbabwe, Kenya.
African Union- all African countries that don't fall in to our "independent" or "barbarian" groups.
Failed States - Somalia, Eritrea, East Timor, Equatorial Guinea. There should also be strong hostile barbarian rebel cities in Iraq, Afghanistan, and western Sudan. Weaker barbarian groups elsewhere, maybe without cities, including in Columbia, Chechnya (Russia), Mexico, Algeria, Basque (EU) and Tibet (China).
Independent Nations - Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Singapore, Dominican republic, Peru, Chile, Vietnam

*The UK has been selected as a non-EU NATO country because of its alignment in international politics and its geographical location.

 

[Adhesive86]

This map has been changed so many times!! The arguments and debates have raged on this for about 2 years now...

I thought Matty had worked to implement that map? Back to square one?

I've got zero knowledge regarding the technical aspects of the mod, hence my enthusiasm for anyone willing to 'make it happen'. However, i can say that the map has been debated so many times over, and this discussion brings it right back to the beginning with questions being posed that myself and others have answered many times over.

The EU debate has been on and off and clearly there are good arguments on either side. Either way it will not be representative as a EU civ comprising Germany, France, Benelux, Italy, Spain et al will go too far (real EU is not fully politically or militarily joined and is nothing like what the states are to the USA), but a split EU will not capture the economic unity of the EU.

All i can say is that this argument has been had over and over, and with the exception of a bit of a totalitarian decision to split the EU (which i didn't agree with, but have come round to), was debated and painstakingly agreed. It would be a shame to throw away all that thinking now, but that's just my two pennies.

 

[Yared]

The EU has gotten pretty close to each other though. No where near the US, but it's still cohesive.

 

[Adhesive86]

EU- as i said there are two arguments and neither will be representative. Yes, the EU is 'pretty close', in some senses. Economically the EU is closest, and perhaps may deserve to be joined if judging on economy to represent the trading bloc. If politics or military then definitely not- only France and UK have internationally strong miliaries and politically to say the EU is very close is a joke. Countries such as Greece, Germany, Sweden and Italy have little in common other than:

a) wanting to compete with China and America as economies and realising the best way to do it is as a trading bloc.

b) not wanting to go to war with each other ever again.

You'd be better off joining Canada with the US on many bases.

ps i understand matty has done leaderheads? maybe best to ask him?

 

[Yared]

Perm. Alliance?

 

[Omega124]

Quite frankly, I am not liking that. As far as I know, leaderhead infos haven't even been made for many of those civilizations, and that's not the full extent of the problem, either. I see no reason why so many member states have been split out of the European Union, when it's become such an important player in world affairs. These states will be more powerful together (a potential rival to the USA, as in real life) than they will be individually, and this is especially so with Civ4's bias towards large empires when determining strength. Furthermore, the EU as it exists in that list is going to be fragmented from itself--not a good thing. I say return the arrangement it had in the screenshots released in the map thread; that is, controlling everything in Western Europe but Switzerland, Scandinavia, and the UK.

Then, there's other states that need more representation because they can't be lumped so easily with the ones next to them. Mongolia is a democracy with a primarily Budhist population, bordering China, an undemocratic country with controversial relations to Budhism--that's important and needs to be addressed. Same with the more liberal, hedonistic United Arab Emirates being next to theocratic Saudi Arabia--somehow you need to address that. We should end up under 50 if we make all those changes, so I think we ought to do so.

NO.

It took us a long time of compromising to get that Civ List, and we are NOT changing it.

With EU, we don't /want/ for it to be the strongest civ in the game, thus, we added countries like France, Germany, Spain, etc, along with the EU to take the unimportant countries, so that while the EU is strong, it has limits.

Switzerland was changed to the EFTA for a good reason. It was pointless as a standalone civ, as France/Germany/Italy/EU could steamroll the civ in a single turn. Thus, we made the EFTA so that the AI wouldn't declare war on it as much, and also to limit EU's strength.

I actually supported Mongolia, but people wanted Taiwan instead, scince it be more interesting of a scenario. I could care less either way, as long as you keep Vietnam. It's just way too different from ASEAN for it to be lumped with it.

Well, do you want UAE to be with stuff like Porto Rico, or Saudi Arabia. Your choice.

 

[Bahmo]

Neither. Puerto Rico is a US colony, and Saudi Arabia is too theocratic to agree with the UAE. I say put them in the Independent states civilization. Also, who controls Mongolia right now?

At any rate, if you are going to put in some member states of the EU as their own Civilization, please hand the Leaderheadinfos to me so I can join them to the Civics coding I did, otherwise it won't work.

 

[Omega124]

Matt has those crap. Get it from him.

 

[remake20]

Sorry guys, but I think I'm going to have to leave this mod. I am very busy right now and don't have a lot of time. The file I have been working on is below.

 

[Bahmo]

The file I have been working on is below.

Uh; no it's not?

 

[remake20]

Oh I see it didn't upload cause it was already in this thread. Hold on I'll find it.

 

[remake20]

Here it is: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8829526&postcount=358

 

[civ_king]

If the problem is an auto-MAF then it needs to be narrowed to 48 civs (or less)

remove Kazakhstan? (Importance?)

 

[Bahmo]

If the people who told me are correct, the problem is actually that Diplomacy needs to be completed before the map loads. I vary my opinions on whether Civs should be removed based upon many things, but key in importance is whether a country is a good or bad neighbor to another. Russia and Kazakhstan have controversial relations over the issue of oil, so you can't just take Kazakhstan out. On the other hand, it isn't all that big a loss that the other former Soviet Socialist Republics in Central Asia are controlled by Kazakhstan in the scenario, as they don't make a big difference in world affairs.

By the way; Matt hasn't gotten back to me with the Leaderheadinfos to go along with the most recent list of Civilizations, so I'm thinking I'm just going to go ahead and add the leaders to the document I already have, and again, I'm going to do it my way in my aforementioned "Little Red Hen" policy. Also, the issue of all these countries and the oil factor will need to be addressed--look for a new thread coming soon.

 

[Joecoolyo]

...

So, who are we still waiting on?