Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[JiimBV]

Is there anything in particular that would make Tibet more prone to collapse? Is foreign core expansion penalized more than before or something? I had to restart from the beginning several times in order to beat the UHV... I collapsed around the year 1100 every time, which is a far cry from my previous Tibet games, where I was more or less stable the entire time (and often played on into the 1700s). The only time I did win was at 1171, and I collapsed the same turn. I've never had a victory score of 0 before!

 

[Leoreth]

Could it be made to scale down with era?

Ancient Era: 10%
Classical Era: 9%
Medieval Era: 8%
Renaissance Era: 7%
Industrial Era: 6%
Modern Era: 5%

Yeah, or it is reduced by the number of turns after your spawn. After all, economic growth is easy right after you've spawned regardless of what era it is.

Also, the only place where the 10% factor in is the growth rate of your own shadow. The final threshold is already computed from your neighbors' growth rates.

I suggest -3 (or -2) for Human and -1 for AI.

Otherwise there is no choice there. You might as well disable Foreign Trade Routes altogether for those civics.

Mercantilism is only trouble if these civs produce more commerce than you, and Central Planning only if they're running Free Market. So it's not like you're completely out of options.

Oh Yeah

Any Chance to me..

I need a bit more information. Who did you play? Where did you expand?

(I'll soon adapt the interface to display more information about your stability.)

Is there anything in particular that would make Tibet more prone to collapse? Is foreign core expansion penalized more than before or something? I had to restart from the beginning several times in order to beat the UHV... I collapsed around the year 1100 every time, which is a far cry from my previous Tibet games, where I was more or less stable the entire time (and often played on into the 1700s). The only time I did win was at 1171, and I collapsed the same turn. I've never had a victory score of 0 before!

Foreign core expansion is penalized a lot, yeah. Where did you expand?

I know Tibet kind of has a rough time at the moment because now expansion is based on the population of your core compared to all other areas, and Rasa doesn't exactly grow huge.

 

[JiimBV]

Foreign core expansion is penalized a lot, yeah. Where did you expand?

I know Tibet kind of has a rough time at the moment because now expansion is based on the population of your core compared to all other areas, and Rasa doesn't exactly grow huge.

I expanded to Gron Myer Tog (sp?), Deli, Pagan and Sirajis. The first time I also took Baghdad from the Arabians, but I collapsed far too quick that time. And, no, it doesn't. Without city states it grows to size 6, or 7 if working all windmills and ignoring the horse and incense.

Is there any way an exception could be made for Tibet? They really collapse FAR too quickly. I suppose next time around I could take Dunhuang instead of Sirajis, that would help a bit, but most of the population comes from Gron Myer Tog while it churns out Great Prophets anyways.

This new system of expansion stability is interesting, for sure. It limits small civs enormously while giving a boost to the large ones, which is pretty much how the real world worked. It just seems too limiting, is all, with civs with particularly small or food poor cores. Also, is the population calculated by the actual population, or the little number attached to it?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Mercantilism is only trouble if these civs produce more commerce than you, and Central Planning only if they're running Free Market. So it's not like you're completely out of options.

It is slightly disturbing how you characterize "options" here.

In reality the Soviet Union had quite extensive trade relation with Japan, West Germany, Finland, and the United States, among others. If you would translate that to a -20 Economic Systems penalty like you're doing now the Soviet Union would have collapsed dozens of times during its history.

Yeah, or it is reduced by the number of turns after your spawn. After all, economic growth is easy right after you've spawned regardless of what era it is.

Yes that would work very well I think.

 

[Leoreth]

I expanded to Gron Myer Tog (sp?), Deli, Pagan and Sirajis. The first time I also took Baghdad from the Arabians, but I collapsed far too quick that time. And, no, it doesn't. Without city states it grows to size 6, or 7 if working all windmills and ignoring the horse and incense.

Is there any way an exception could be made for Tibet? They really collapse FAR too quickly. I suppose next time around I could take Dunhuang instead of Sirajis, that would help a bit, but most of the population comes from Gron Myer Tog while it churns out Great Prophets anyways.

This new system of expansion stability is interesting, for sure. It limits small civs enormously while giving a boost to the large ones, which is pretty much how the real world worked. It just seems too limiting, is all, with civs with particularly small or food poor cores. Also, is the population calculated by the actual population, or the little number attached to it?

It's the ingame number that shows up directly next to your cities. Of course there's a weighting attached to them so historical territory is almost negligible for expansion while foreign cores and conquest increase the impact.

I'm aware that the system doesn't suit every civ right now and especially Tibet seems to be in a bad position with only one food poor core city and a UHV goal that requires rapid expansion with only foreign cores as a possible option. So there definitely needs to be an accomodation for them, I just don't know how I'll do it yet.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Capital's population is doubled (or even tripled) when counting Core population.

Also you may want to enlarge Phoenicia's Core to include Carthage. Otherwise when they loose their possessions in the Levant to Persia they die.

Also, in reality the Tibetan Empire did collapse after fewer than 250 years.

But hey, why should I be worried. Tibet does not even exist in my game.

 

[Leoreth]

I'll do something for the Phoenicia/Carthage switch soon, same for Khmer after the Thai spawn.

Pointing out whether Thailand does or does not exist in your game is unnecessary by the way.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I'll do something for the Phoenicia/Carthage switch soon, same for Khmer after the Thai spawn.

Pointing out whether Thailand does or does not exist in your game is unnecessary by the way.

But pointing out whether Tibet exists is?

 

[JiimBV]

^ Capital's population is doubled (or even tripled) when counting Core population.

I really quite like this idea, and I vote for tripled myself.

 

[Leoreth]

Core population already counts four times as much. Or do you mean a further increase for the capital? Could become OP for civs like England.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

European colonial civs (except Russia) all have small cores compared to their expansion goals. They need some form of extra Stability boost during colonial expansion now that Resettlement no longer exists.

Especially England who is supposed to take over India. India is loaded with food rich Foreign Core cities. From what I've seen AI England can't manage it without going Unstable or Collapsing.

 

[Swarbs]

Core population already counts four times as much. Or do you mean a further increase for the capital? Could become OP for civs like England.

Population, or size?

The way city population scales with size, relying on population may create problems. Even if it's four times as much, that won't really help Tibet if size five Rasa has only a quarter of the pop of size eight Varasani (or whatever name it gets when Tibet conquers it!)

On the other hand, population may be a bit OP for England and other colonial civs, with London and Paris able to hit size 20 relatively easily, which gives them population of around eight size 10 colonies.

 

[Leoreth]

European colonial civs (except Russia) all have small cores compared to their expansion goals. They need some form of extra Stability boost during colonial expansion now that Resettlement no longer exists.

Especially England who is supposed to take over India. India is loaded with food rich Foreign Core cities. From what I've seen AI England can't manage it without going Unstable or Collapsing.

That's a valid observation, I suppose it's a good idea to WB myself some empires that are supposed to be feasible (since historical), and see how the stability turns out. Of course, as with the previous rules, there's still the possibility to balance overexpansion with other categories, so not all of these have to turn out with 0 expansion stability. But with a decent economy and appropriate civics you should be able to cope.

The England example also shows that I should probably be more lenient with contested tiles in general, this might also help Tibet.

Population, or size?

The way city population scales with size, relying on population may create problems. Even if it's four times as much, that won't really help Tibet if size five Rasa has only a quarter of the pop of size eight Varasani (or whatever name it gets when Tibet conquers it!)

What do you mean by size here? Territory?

On the other hand, population may be a bit OP for England and other colonial civs, with London and Paris able to hit size 20 relatively easily, which gives them population of around eight size 10 colonies.

Only if all of these colonies are on historical tiles, and then that's fine by me. They get +1 modifiers for different original owner, different majority culture, ahistorical territory and foreign cores.

 

[BenZL43]

When Khmer become Viet/Burma/NZ, does her stability reset to 0 or still suffer stability hit from losing Angkor to Thai?

There's no stability hit anymore right when moving capitals?

 

[Leoreth]

"Stability hits" as such don't exist anymore because there is no permanent stability value. Your stability is calculated for each check, then the consequences are determined and the value is discarded again. In other words, the stability code does not "remember" your actions, but only looks at your empire as is.

Moving your capital triggers a stability check though, so it can cause problems if you're somehow unstable already.

 

[Daedwartin]

Leoreth, does historical territory get counted as core population, as I kept having troubles in an Incan game, where I literally had all my territory in historical territory up to the point I decided it was time to kick Spain's ass in the 5 turns they had til they got rifling(which I had managed to get before them, through massive useage of gold and spies, followed by simply getting the tech researched first), yet I had over half of my population as non-core pop. Which only got worse when stopped whipping my people to get things built and my cities ballooned to near 14 pop for many.

 

[KeeperOT7Keys]

size is city's ''game'' pop, around 20-30 but population isn't linear with size, when you bring your mouse to city name you will see; it's calculating differently like 33 size city has 33 million pop, but 34 size city has 36 million pop
it isn't important in game mechanics, only for representing demographics

 

[Daedwartin]

size is city's ''game'' pop, around 20-30 but population isn't linear with size, when you bring your mouse to city name you will see; it's calculating differently like 33 size city has 33 million pop, but 34 size city has 36 million pop
it isn't important in game mechanics, only for representing demographics

/facepalm
The stupidity in this post of his is astounding.
THAT IS POP. We consider POP to be that 20-30. Actual populations we don't pay attention to.

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

/facepalm
The stupidity in this post of his is astounding.
THAT IS POP. We consider POP to be that 20-30. Actual populations we don't pay attention to.

Don't insult him - it's not completely unimportant, as it's relevant for several UHV's (notably India, Indonesia and Congo, who have to achieve high population across multiple cities).

 

[yurisusuki]

I need a bit more information. Who did you play? Where did you expand?

(I'll soon adapt the interface to display more information about your stability.)

China 3000 BC .. I just built 3 cities .. The capital in my core and two in historic area .. I was with a reasonable army ..Without losses for barbarians..GPD in 1 .. but always with low stability