Current (SVN) development discussion thread
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
The problem I have with adding coffee or tea is that they add excess happiness to the game without anything to balance it.
The goal is already added, I just didn't commit it yet (I'd like to have a test game to check if it works). Expect it around the evening hours CET.
And v1.8 is almost finished. I'm cautious with such statements now. All I'm still planning is to redo the Dawn of Man texts (some are too short or too awkward, others are inaccurate due to changes to their civs) and move Arabia to spawn in 620 AD even in the 600 AD scenario to end their special treatment when it comes to flips.
The goal is already added, I just didn't commit it yet (I'd like to have a test game to check if it works). Expect it around the evening hours CET.
And v1.8 is almost finished. I'm cautious with such statements now. All I'm still planning is to redo the Dawn of Man texts (some are too short or too awkward, others are inaccurate due to changes to their civs) and move Arabia to spawn in 620 AD even in the 600 AD scenario to end their special treatment when it comes to flips.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
(1) This does not have a very strong effect. Adding a new religion (e.g. Protestantism) amounts to the same thing. Adding Cotton was exactly the same - and I think Coffee and Tea are more important resources to the 21st century society than Cotton. The Arab UP gives +5 free Happiness (with the correct civic combo; +6 with Incense). Coffee and Tea combined give only +2.
(2) As I have shown late game cities can grow to very large sizes (e.g. 33 pop New York) with corporations. An extra +1 or +2 Happiness is actually sorely needed, instead of unbalanced.
The effect will be even more apparent if you buff the yield of the late game corporations (Fishing and Cereal), which IMHO you should.
(3) There are multiple easy ways to balance it:
(3A) Obsolete some older luxury resources, just like how Whale, Ivory, and Fur obsolete with late game tech (Combustion, Industrialism, Plastics). For example let Dye obsolete with Mass Media.
(3B) Remove some happiness bonuses of other resources. For example let Cotton give no Happiness bonus (I have no idea why it does).
(3C) Simply let Coffee/Tea give no Happiness bonus. Crude, but effective. Or make their Happiness bonus require University/Bank or something.
hehehe..
IrishDragon
Legend
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 522
The fact that there's a number of new civs should help balance it too?
CET is GMT+1.
@iOnlySignIn: Good points. Although I don't think religion happiness is comparable to resource happiness, because it's limited to certain regions (and it's hard to get every religion in one city), while resources can be traded. But your suggestions are good possible solutions.
Edit: new revision is up.
@iOnlySignIn: Good points. Although I don't think religion happiness is comparable to resource happiness, because it's limited to certain regions (and it's hard to get every religion in one city), while resources can be traded. But your suggestions are good possible solutions.
Edit: new revision is up.
ramz711
Chieftain
Re: iOSI: why not switch Cotton's bonus from happy to health? Makes more sense to me.
Also, Leoreth, if you need someone to write DoM texts, let me know. I write for a living.
Also, Leoreth, if you need someone to write DoM texts, let me know. I write for a living.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
@ramz711: Or we can simply give Cotton plantation a +1 Hammer bonus, instead of any Health/Happiness bonus. Diversity is good, no?
Speaking of Plantations, 2 things:
(A) The "Plantation connects resources" mod crucially affects Trading Company yields and the Dutch UHV. Without it, it's actually more beneficial to build Forts on certain Plantation resources.
(B) I think a +1 Gold boost to Plantation improvement should come with Biology/Refrigeration. Otherwise it's too tempting to destroy most of your Plantations late game and replace them with other improvements (Watermills mostly).
@Leoreth: I find multiple religions to be not that hard to spread - perhaps it's because I like Free Religion? 2 examples:
(A) An European civ founding Protestantism. I almost never convert, because
(A1) If you convert you only get 1 religion (Protestantism) in most of your cities. If you don't, you automatically get 2 religions (Protestant and Catholic), which benefits more from Free Religion.
(A2) In 600AD scenario, all Catholic buildings give +2 Hammer, something that no other religion has. So in the long term, Catholicism is the one true faith that is > all.
(B) China/India in Medieval/Renaissance with Free Religion (via Shandagon Paya). Due to your early start, all of your cities already have their infrastructure in place. You have also destroyed/vassalized most your neighbors. So what do you do? Build missionaries. It's not just for your UHV.
In my Chinese games I almost always have Confucianism + Taoism + Buddhism in all my cities plus Free Religion, and that is on top of all the Plantation luxuries. Triple Monasteries in all your cities really abuses the Chinese UP to astronomical proportions. Sometimes I found Islam too.
Speaking of Plantations, 2 things:
(A) The "Plantation connects resources" mod crucially affects Trading Company yields and the Dutch UHV. Without it, it's actually more beneficial to build Forts on certain Plantation resources.
(B) I think a +1 Gold boost to Plantation improvement should come with Biology/Refrigeration. Otherwise it's too tempting to destroy most of your Plantations late game and replace them with other improvements (Watermills mostly).
@Leoreth: I find multiple religions to be not that hard to spread - perhaps it's because I like Free Religion? 2 examples:
(A) An European civ founding Protestantism. I almost never convert, because
(A1) If you convert you only get 1 religion (Protestantism) in most of your cities. If you don't, you automatically get 2 religions (Protestant and Catholic), which benefits more from Free Religion.
(A2) In 600AD scenario, all Catholic buildings give +2 Hammer, something that no other religion has. So in the long term, Catholicism is the one true faith that is > all.
(B) China/India in Medieval/Renaissance with Free Religion (via Shandagon Paya). Due to your early start, all of your cities already have their infrastructure in place. You have also destroyed/vassalized most your neighbors. So what do you do? Build missionaries. It's not just for your UHV.
In my Chinese games I almost always have Confucianism + Taoism + Buddhism in all my cities plus Free Religion, and that is on top of all the Plantation luxuries. Triple Monasteries in all your cities really abuses the Chinese UP to astronomical proportions. Sometimes I found Islam too.
Thanks, but at the moment I'm still trying to figure out what the DoM texts should actually include; if they should directly address the player and his objectives or only state the historical background and only imply his goals (which is a lot harder because often the spawn is really early compared to when a civ historically rose to prominence).
I'm currently pondering this and imo the best thing to do is limit Cotton, Spices, Tea, Coffee (maybe also Tobacco) to say, 4-5 occurences globally so that it's difficult to get all of them and maybe have some of them only give +1 happiness with the right building. Since currently Spices apparently also represent Tobacco, its spread can be toned down a bit (we have to think of something for the Dutch UHV then).
Both sound good.
I intend to make some changes to religions in 1.9, mainly that non-state religions cause extra unhappiness that can be offset by building temples, so they give you a net zero happiness gain (basically the SoI model). Syncretic combos like Hinduism + Buddhism and Confucianism + Taoism might be excepted. Free Religion would then only offset these penalties instead of being a happiness wonder.
The Reformation will also be redone to include more drawbacks of staying Catholic, like some anarchy etc.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
I think all Plantation Luxuries (except Silk) should be affected, namely Dye/Incense. I have a feeling that currently Incense represents most Tea/Coffee, and there are a bit to many Dyes on the map.
The Dutch UHV could simply be changed to "Get X Plantation resources" instead. About Dutch games in general,
(A) Currently the UHVs plus the 1500 start time means that Dutch games are all really short, even on Marathon.
(B) Dutch AI's culture is horrible, which I find lamentable since I'm a big fan of Dutch Golden Age painting.
(C) Even the new UP isn't that powerful, again due to the uber late start. I cannot get as much yield out of Trading Company as the Dutch compared to what I can with England or Portugal.
(D) Your UHVs should be won before you get Steam Power, i.e. before you build the legendary Dikes, making them useless.
(E) For the current UHVs, a valid strategy is to not found Amsterdam at all, and instead found your capital in the Americas (New York, even, since your UHVs will finish before the American spawn). Then you don't have to worry about pleasing the Germans and the French, and simply focus on commerce and UHV.
I suggest a few Dutch buffs:
(1) Trading Company spreads to Amsterdam;
(2) More starting Culture techs (Aesthetics, Drama, Literature, Music);
(3) Flood Plains near Amsterdam, or additional Food resources;
(4) Lower tech requirements for Dike, e.g. Replaceable Parts (The Dutch starts with Engineering but not Printing Press).
Even though I'm a Free Religion addict I must say these are plausible.
But additionally I think Confucianism/Taosim should be more compatible with other religions, or at least Buddhism if you're going for historical accuracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_teachings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Confucianism
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Here is my Confucian wonder rebalance discussed (and approved by Leoreth) in the "Chinese Stability Survey" thread.
http://tinyurl.com/7j9uh2x
Log:
(1) Terracotta Army:
- Requires Pottery;
- Same cost as the Flavian Amphitheatre (300);
- +6 Hammer;
- Free Drill I promotion for all units built in this city;
- Obsoletes with Assembly Line.
(2) Porcelain Tower:
- Requires Banking;
- 1.5 times the cost of Basilica di San Marco (600);
- +2 Gold from Scientists and Artists in all cities;
- 1 Scientist slot, 1 Artist slot;
- Obsoletes with Communism.
(3) Forbidden Palace:
- Requires Divine Right;
- Cost unchanged: 800 with no resource bonus;
- Government center;
- 1 Free Merchant;
- Does not obsolete.
http://tinyurl.com/7j9uh2x
Log:
(1) Terracotta Army:
- Requires Pottery;
- Same cost as the Flavian Amphitheatre (300);
- +6 Hammer;
- Free Drill I promotion for all units built in this city;
- Obsoletes with Assembly Line.
(2) Porcelain Tower:
- Requires Banking;
- 1.5 times the cost of Basilica di San Marco (600);
- +2 Gold from Scientists and Artists in all cities;
- 1 Scientist slot, 1 Artist slot;
- Obsoletes with Communism.
(3) Forbidden Palace:
- Requires Divine Right;
- Cost unchanged: 800 with no resource bonus;
- Government center;
- 1 Free Merchant;
- Does not obsolete.
great.taurus
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2010
- Messages
- 149
Has Italy been removed from the 3000BC start?
Even abusing the World Builder (clearing out other civs from Italy, etc) I can't get them to spawn.
Even abusing the World Builder (clearing out other civs from Italy, etc) I can't get them to spawn.
Italy is a respawn of Rome... you can only play it when Rome died and it respawn..
Anyway.. Just random thoughts..
Leoreth, if China can be spawned in 3000BCScen at 3000BC and in 600ADScen at 600AD, why can't Rome be spawned in 753BC at 3000BCSCen and 1100sAD at 600ADScen?
IIRC German spawn date is different both at 3000BC and 600AD too but can't be sure
Anyway.. Just random thoughts..
Leoreth, if China can be spawned in 3000BCScen at 3000BC and in 600ADScen at 600AD, why can't Rome be spawned in 753BC at 3000BCSCen and 1100sAD at 600ADScen?
IIRC German spawn date is different both at 3000BC and 600AD too but can't be sure
great.taurus
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2010
- Messages
- 149
Rome is quite dead. Isn't Italy supposed to try and spawn in 1167?
great.taurus
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2010
- Messages
- 149
I used the World Builder to flip every city in Italy to Indie or Barbarian ownership. :/
great.taurus
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2010
- Messages
- 149
In 1150, when I spawned as the Inca. I checked again in 1168. Nobody had taken the cities from the Barbs, and yet there was no Italian Spawn.
EDIT: They did spawn in the 600 AD start, though.
